{"id":29498,"date":"2021-06-09T12:17:05","date_gmt":"2021-06-09T10:17:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.akademie-solitude.de\/?p=29498"},"modified":"2021-12-02T08:58:10","modified_gmt":"2021-12-02T07:58:10","slug":"inspired-by-the-word-bannrecht-right-to-ban","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.akademie-solitude.de\/en\/inspired-by-the-word-bannrecht-right-to-ban\/","title":{"rendered":"Inspired by the word Bannrecht (right to ban)"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"author":16,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"inline_featured_image":false,"footnotes":""},"project":[353,813],"project_type":[],"class_list":["post-29498","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","project-online-publications","project-mutations-2"],"acf":{"bgcolor":"","bgcolor_custom":"","custom_color_css_variable":"","content_type":[{"acf_fc_layout":"content_txt","bgcolor":"","bgcolor_custom":"","layout_col_size":8,"txt_cols":"is-1-txtcol","txt":"

At the request of the guest editor, this text has not been redacted to ensure complete original style.<\/p>\r\n\u00a0\r\n\r\n\u00a0\r\n\r\nJoana Quiroga<\/strong>: Let's see if I can expose the things I have been thinking, Why? Why then Castiel and Fredone together? ... Researching this bread thing and such, and then thinking about it here, I come to this ... for me, it is very strange, even the name, and that is also what moves me: \u00bbRight to ban.\u00ab1<\/sup> Nobles had the right to ban. Because it worked like this ... for example, people in a village had to grind their wheat or bake their bread in those places, otherwise they would be taxed or punished, etc... people were forced to do that, if the person were caught doing these actions at home, they were also punished and a number of other things ...\r\n\r\nCastiel<\/strong>: Was it in Germany?\r\n\r\nJoana<\/strong>: Yes, but it happened in several places, in this case, in Portugal for example it was called \u201cBanality\u201d2<\/sup>, which is also a super strong word, it is\u2026 it's not just the bread and the oven for example, I don't remember which word you use for , the place where people grind the grape to then make the wine ...\r\n\r\nCastie<\/strong>l:\u00a0 umm ... I don't know, either.\r\n\r\nJoana<\/strong>: Anyway ... to make beer, to hunt, to use the forest, to get the stumps ... everything belonged to the noblemen ... so the person would charge the price he wanted, and so on. But more than a period in time, how it founded a way of thinking that has not gone away ... people with more power to say how, when and where people have their living conditions ... with a symbolic food like bread, right?\u00a0 ... like \u201cWhat are people going to eat? When are people going to eat? At what price?\u201d They invented that to pay for themselves, too ... the noblemen, they charged what they wanted, not only as a way of controlling the population, but also to finance and pay for their own lives ... for example, a nobleman would go to war, he financed those wars through taxes, and then, for example, he was going to increase the taxes for you to use the mill ...\r\n\r\nCastiel<\/strong>: And that ban, was it to go to a specific place? The person?\r\n\r\nJoana<\/strong>:\u00a0 the bani\u2026 yeah, what do you mean? I don\u2019t know if I understood.\r\n\r\nCastie<\/strong>l: It is that, the right to ban is not, to ban a person from a place, is it? Was the person going somewhere?\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> And the punishment was also determined by the noblemen, do you understand? If a person created laws, he created the punishment, he created a price ...\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> It was all his.\r\n\r\nJoana<\/strong>: Yeah, but this literally ... this is another chapter that is not necessarily related, but as I said, it's a mentality ... the farmers were considered property of the land, which belonged to the noblemen... so, that was called servitude and such, a whole other arm of it all. But thinking about this issue of the right to ban, and thinking about where I am\u2026 I mean, like the experience of being here, for example, in Europe, or the experience of making art here in Europe, other forms of these rights to ban, also take shape ...\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> In which city are you in Germany?\r\n\r\nJoana: <\/strong>it's Stuttgart.\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Hum rum\r\n\r\nJoana<\/strong>: But anyway, let's see if I can .... I\u2019m reading there, researching bread, and I see this thing there called \u201cthe right to ban\u201d it is\u2026 your work brings an understanding of it all, but it's also necessary a kind of \u00bbto turn the fuck on\u00ab ...\r\n\r\n[...]\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Hurum yes yes, difficult ... it reminded me of your own research on bread, right? because when I went to, at Homero Massena, where I had contact with it... I am in love with your research... and the question of fermentation as it is a chemical reaction with air, which changes according to the environment. That phrase of yours now that you told me, told us, you know, to feel uncomfortable, right? with what is around you also reminded me of the process of\u2026 fermentation, of making bread, the process that somehow this relation of discomfort, too, right? of fermenting.\r\n\r\nJoana: <\/strong>Yes ... I was listening a little bit of your podcast3<\/sup>, and that is one of the questions ... but fermentation has something very close ... one of the possible legs, from this research, which is fermentation, is also a naturalization of the process of death , because death is a ... Fermentation is the process of something rotting... if you leave it untouched it becomes ... it becomes something that you cannot consume, but precisely this process of rotting ... these microorganisms both make bread and make the corpse turn into organic matter to go under the ground, understand? ... it has a relation with death and ... it's not brought as an end, as something moralized, if it's good, if it's bad, if it shouldn't be, it's not about that, but just how much more intimate you are in this process of death, but it suddenly becomes ... your tomorrow ... I don't know if I traveled too much in your comment?\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> No, that was it, I also believe in death. I think that death is necessary and something that characterizes life, on a planetary level and even our galaxy, but I am not afraid to use the word death, on the contrary, I always use it. I love the word death, and so I usually separate death from annihilation, I think this fear that you showed like that, you know, of being misunderstood with the word death, I think it speaks of a different process, of annihilation. You want to forget about this life. Annihilate the possibility of presence, but death is the very name of the project, right? Transmutation is a transformation in the way of living. With bread, or with our very souls, and with everything there is. The corpses. I like death.\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> ... a little, yes, I'm afraid ... No! I'm really afraid ... having to explain things too much, it's a habit too, maybe because I studied philosophy, I don't know ...\r\n\r\nCastiel: <\/strong>I remember you studied philosophy, it's true ...\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> Anyway, right? ... I had sort of put an order of questions, but since we talked about this death thing ... I think that everything we are talking about also joins the theme of residence, the question of mutations. Because the mutation is also a natural process that happens all the time in cells, any cells, they are transforming... this thing from the science book, that one little cell is going to be the same as another... that practically doesn\u2019t exist, the cells are always changing and\u2026 but we also moralize that, right? Both on the scale of the tiny microorganism and on the human scale, fucked up, nasty, which says \u201cthis is the rule. The mutation? This is what is out of the norm\u201d. And then you classify that, too ... the reasoning behind the mutations continues... in face of science, there is still a little bit of a right to ban in the reading of life itself, you know? How will you classify life? Anyway, I can be tripping here, because I think it has to do with the virus, the virus that is here causing us to be quarantined, technically it is not a living being. Because it doesn\u2019t have the characteristics, it lacks I don\u2019t know what\u2026 something that has no life, but that is changing all the time, and look what it\u2019s doing! This definition of life itself is a very Western thing, the \u201cright to ban\u201d that says what is alive, and what is not alive. So, how does that way of thinking, this operating system that is in everything, that reads from the virus until ... you know? But that's another thing, I can't keep tripping on it, because I want to show you what your work makes me feel...\r\n\r\nThis mentality of the right to ban causes places invaded by the creators of that mentality... other places where, at least, that mentality didn't exist. In those places, proximity to death becomes constant. We are born banned as a continent. The fact that we are from an American continent... which cannot even be said to be American, because the United States also took it for itself, this \u00bbto be American\u00ab ... but anyway, that is also a horrible word because it is a name of one of the invaders: America... anyway ... we are born banned as a continent, as incapable of having economic autonomy, of thinking, knowledge, in short, everything we think about, we are already kind of ... we are the \u00bbnot-them\u00ab. But, getting out of this \u201cphilosopher's talk\u201d a little, this proximity to death is daily, concrete\u2026 it is necessary to always claim that death, this life in the face of this death, this denial\u2026 everything is done in order not to live, and at best you manage to survive. And all of that in your work, in research and in life, right, because what is it ... you work what you are ... in very different ways ... I feel that you work with this, building and destroying on top of that daily experience with death, so to speak ... at different scales, because it happens at different scales, right?... at the religious level, at the literal, statistical level ... that threaten the physical body, but at the same time it is always shaping. This death, this mentality of the right to ban, threatens the physical body, but it shapes what is not physical, and I think that your work translates what cannot be translated ... it is something that you can put into very diverse layers. For example, the recent work that Fred has from \u201cVis\u00e3o Central Perif\u00e9rica<\/em>\u201d (Central Peripheral Vision), I don't know if you got to see it ... [...] yes, but it is because I think it is strange to be in this place, you know? I don't think I should have this place, well ... So, tell me guys, otherwise I'm going to continue in this place that I think I don't I belong... You would say that you have an experience of being close to ... is Death part of your job?\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Do you want to answer, Fred?\r\n\r\nFred: <\/strong>It could be. So... it is quite strange, because until I started to understand the world a little more, even after being inside hip-hop for many years, I started to realize it as I moved further away from the place where I grew up. Because it seemed such a natural thing ... to think that I almost died, I saw people dying, I saw things happening by my side, and that on the other day I was in the same place, in places where the risk was physically constant, but I went back to that same place, I would spend the night in that place ...\r\n\r\nJoana: <\/strong>You say: \u00bbin the place\u00ab... do you say the neighborhood where you grew up in general?\r\n\r\nFred: <\/strong>Physically being there ... then I guess I wasn\u2019t that scared. Today, maybe this death for me comes more from this fear of dying, let's say, when I remember the things that happened, and that continue to happen, but that today I already see much more from the outside. In fact, I am someone who was built in those environments, where death is very close, and I realize that I was very close to go myself. I think it comes closer to what Castiel said, about this annihilation, that word... but as this thing is very constant, and as I can see myself in this situation today, but it was not a thing that crossed my mind, of death, annihilation, exclusion, etc. It took, I don't know, thirty years of my life for me to start seeing this. Because growing up in the middle of it all, surrounded by all those things, it was so natural that I thought, innocently, that everyone went through that. Because I couldn't see it outside the wall. Talking about the work \u00bbVis\u00e3o central-perif\u00e9rica (Central-peripheral vision)\u00ab4<\/sup>, I had this wall in front of me, a brick in front of me, in front of my eyes. And then when I turn that brick, I see several holes in it, I see that there are a lot of things going on out of there. It took me a long time to realize that I was on one side of the wall ...\r\n\r\nJoana <\/strong>Do you think so? No sorry...\r\n\r\nFred<\/strong>: I think these things were getting into me, these visions, they were getting into my head, but I didn't realize it. But they did come in, worked on my head and continue to work today. It is difficult for me to get out of this condition of being on the other side of the wall, of seeing that I am in various parts of that wall: on this side, on that side, above, below. And when I see myself looking a little more on this side of the wall, I see how all those things got into my head and started to build who I am, but I didn't realize it so much. Now I can say: Dammit! Everything that got into my head, I didn't even know it was there, nor did I know that there was a wall, and now I'm seeing it ... it totally transformed me. I often can't get rid of that fear. Maybe, that's it: I never stopped thinking the way Castiel said... but it's the annihilation thing... I think it's a fear of something more brutal, you know? Because that's what came into my head as something natural, and it ... messes with me... now.\r\n\r\nCastiel<\/strong>: Yes, I ... were you going to ask, Joana?\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> No, I think he ended up answering, because precisely ... it\u2019s not because he didn\u2019t have, maybe, wouldn\u2019t even ask, in fact. Looking at those words ... this experience of death is happening, and it was not there, doing things on him ...\r\n\r\nCastiel: <\/strong>hurum, yes, my relationship with death is very similar to ... with that of Fredone, because it really was after I left Fonte Grande ... yeah, in my first year of high school, because I lived through elementary school, up to the eighth grade in the community, at a school here in Fonte Grande ... and when I go to high school, I go to a school that, even though it is still in Vit\u00f3ria downtown, it is far from Fonte Grande, I go on foot, but it is far. And there I meet a mixture of people and start to see how my dark black body, you know, it starts to be redistributed, to be repositioned in this social relationship, because here in Fonte Grande I lived among people like me, and when people leave this birthplace, it is a dislocation of life, right ... we start to position ourselves socially in another way ... but I am very angry about it! I'm very angry about what happens ... so, man, I made a promise ... I said: look ... because... Fonte Grande is also important because it is the highest point on the island of Vit\u00f3ria, so I always looked at the sea and I was very afraid of a huge wave arriving and killing everyone. Only today I see that it was not a fear, it was more a desire for this wave to arrive soon ... and rise and drown everyone, because I knew that in Fonte Grande, I would be safe. So ... but then, leaving here, I kept thinking ... man, I am not from Fonte Grande, I am from planet Earth, right ... I am ... this is all mine, this is all ours, as Fredone himself also speaks, you know ... to look at it from another perspective, to understand that there are other possibilities for living on this planet ... so ... it is an exercise in courage, you know, to go outside ... to leave your birthplace ... and understand that everything here ... we were born in all this and how to continue, right, even with fear.\r\n\r\nJoana: <\/strong>You two talk about fear, and anger ... What makes you angry? What are you afraid of now that you weren't before?\r\n\r\nCastiel: <\/strong>Do you want to speak Fredone?\r\n\r\nFred: <\/strong>You can continue ... Go on... lol\r\n\r\nCastiel: <\/strong>Yeah, I ... like this level, I think that when you ask me about fear, I keep thinking on the molecular, micro molecular level. I think that somehow these molecules are afraid. It is ... not fear, but this transmutation, this daily and uninterrupted change and ... that life never stops, the world is always transmuting, changing itself, always and it generates fear ... but in fact, now that I'm talking about it ... I think I don't even agree with what I'm talking about, because ... oh, I think the fear of transmutation is in fact a colonial fear, on a level of ...\r\n\r\nJoana. <\/strong>Yes...\r\n\r\nCastiel: <\/strong>It is ... a created fear, right? A fear of change, fear of facing the different, a fear of feeling destabilized, of looking and realizing that, wow! Everything I imagined, everything I used to perceive, may not be necessary at this moment, and it causes fear, because ... it also causes courage. Because I look to the side, I look at you, I look at the plants ... because I am in love with the plants and I see, these girls kept on ... it is because I just moved house so many plants died, they did not like this space, and I'm learning a lot from that, that there are spaces that are not what they want, and that's it, just it.\r\n\r\nJoana: <\/strong>yes ... but I think that's it ... the kind that Fred has been thinking more lately ... as he has been talking about this side of fear. Sorry, my intention is not to expose, it is to think a little about the web of it all. But as in that fear the proximity is so great ... and like, it seems that suddenly you turn the brick and see something else ... it is so close to the face on the wall that suddenly when you see that there is a hole ... it goes \u201ctipluft\u201d. That's what you're talking about, right? There is constant fear, and then you, right ... at least taking the words that you are saying there, that if you accept this fear in the way that this invader brought to us ... that we are afraid, feel and accept that we don't have space ... it doesn't really let you look beyond the wall ... it's done for that, you don't look that those walls have holes ... you don't look that the plants are born again ... well, like how life is bigger than that ... like how life itself is much bigger than this place here, allowed ... a little of where I wanted to go ... this experience and proximity to death ... oh, I would have to stop to think about this difference that you brought about death and annihilation, but I will not be able to do it now ... but how do you take your work and make it like a secret door, which enters a magical world, let's put it that way, also magic, I will not to be able to work it properly now ... what is in the molecule, as you said, how do you make it a possible starting point, shall we say so?\r\n\r\n\u00a0Castiel: <\/strong>Starting points for what?\r\n\r\nJoana: <\/strong>To affirm a world that is not to affirm ... like \u201cah! I can\u2019t do anything?\u201d \u201cDon't you allow me to do that? I'm tired! I will invent whatever I want!\u201d Anyway, such a radical experience with the ban that I think the creator of this operating system, this mentality, will never understand. And then a movement of affirmation begins, like this ... you wanted to poison me ... but your poison has become an antidote, let's say so ... I see in you a creation of a philosophy ... in much more generous and broader terms than the academic and blablabla<\/em> philosophy, but in a philosophy of its own ... affirming the central and peripheral vision, understand? It's how I understand a little bit about the \u201csagrado feminino de merda<\/em>\u201d5<\/sup>(sacred female shit) ... yeah\u2026 anyway\u2026 I'm talking too much again\u2026 do you have anything to say?\r\n\r\nFred: <\/strong>So, I was going to talk about fear, you know, and I was going to talk a little bit about that when you said\u2026 like, I think\u2026 no, I'm totally sure that it is such a strong thing, right, right\u2026 I I'm forty, and at least in those thirty years, seeing myself on one side of the wall, not being able to see the world from the outside... it's very difficult, even, to reverse all of that, and in such a short time... at least for me... I have great difficulty. So, at the same time that I turn all this into a rage, into an engine to do some things, that I have been doing throughout my life ... at the same time it seems that this strength is exhausted ... I am exhausted of starting this engine to work ... So, it seems that I need some time to do it again. But I wouldn't say that it was calculated, at least in those thirty years of life, or, I don't know ... at least some twenty-five years painting on the street ... it wasn't calculated, like this ... It was emerging ... And I think that it emerged in such a natural way, that somehow, we learned to organize. And it was through hip-hop. That was when I met a friend ... I don't know, I started making friends, right ... from S\u00e3o Pedro, from Vila Garrido, from Feu Rosa ... people from Serra Dourada, Jardim Carapina6<\/sup>, so, this way... usually hip-hop it was bringing together people who came from the periphery, and ninety percent of that time of the 90's ... when I started to approach hip-hop ... ninety percent was black and from the periphery. We were already hanging out. We did not plan \u201cI\u2019m going to get together with the young people in this neighborhood, peripheral and black people\u201d. We didn't plan any of this ... we got something that was in the air, like the rap that reached me, like the music that is on the speakers and enters my ear ... we started connecting through it. It wasn't exactly a plan ... of course, we had several plans ... in various ways, but I didn't say: \u00bbNow I'm going to take out my anger, or I'm going to pay back!\u00ab. That was not it. Things came, being part of my life, along with all my experience in the neighborhood, but it also made me connect with other people, go to other neighborhoods to paint, go to events, organize myself with people from other neighborhoods, get together to make a poster, carry a speaker, turn on the sound, and after finishing, take apart everything, take apart the improvised stage. Maybe today it is more planned, but it remains ... me, living like this ... some things that are flowing, flowing from me, flowing from my way of thinking, the way I connect. It is clear! ... I was formed mainly in the 1990s. Then hip-hop from that time formed me, with a way of seeing the world very different from today. Not that at that time it was worse or better, but they are the result of peripheral visions that were passing from mind to mind ... we passed those visions, until today ... the older ones learning with the younger ones, the younger ones learning with the elders, and we learned how to organize ourselves, without practically reading anything, because what we had to read was produced by the MCs who wrote the lyrics and sang ... they were reading the lyrics themselves ... so that was our access to reading. A reading, but through the voice, as if they were rap lyrics read.7<\/sup> And it remains very, very natural ... I wouldn't be able to work if things weren't that way ...\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Castiel: It's fucking awesome because I also have a very strong relationship with rap, but that relationship started in my teens ... 2010 or a little earlier in the beginning, and it's another rap generation, very problematic even, the Projota8<\/sup> generation ... then, for following your work Fred, and other friends who work on the street with graffiti and spaying, so. You mentioned now that you had to learn how to record the drawing, because the drawing goes away ... that is death. You deal directly with the end of that form ... but again, it is not this death of annihilation. Of course, the city ... it hates us, right, certain shapes we print on buildings ... but still, depending on the building when you peel some ink, there are traces, traces of something, some things that we printed there ... some things, right. Then death is present as this transmutation, as a modification of form.\r\n\r\nFred:<\/strong> Yes.\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> Then I'm here thinking about which little door I go in now ... but one thing that caught my attention, in this case I think Fred spoke a little more highlighting \u00bbIt happened naturally ...\u00ab. You used that expression ... that your experience is with rap, what you've been learning all the more in a natural way. And then I was thinking ... and also because I am also here experiencing a certain kind of dealing with the art world, I thought of asking you about this passage, between the natural way of experiencing certain things, to enter the world of art, which ... repeats this right to ban.\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> The art world?\r\n\r\nJoana: <\/strong>It is... starting from this idea that I will try to explain, in the art world, in general, only the idea of \u200b\u200bart is already super problematic... this definition of what is or is not art. Who does or who doesn't make art? Who is valued and who is not? Who sells? And when saying, for example, what is not art, tell some people ways of expressing themselves, some ways of doing this or that, that suddenly do one way, or behave in another way, that suddenly does not satisfy... Fred. In the example of his life experience working as a bricklayer... this is the subject and the research... it is a very important question in Fred's work... how he does it, the things he does... if he did it without having this \u201cart\u201d label, maybe he would be invisible, right? \u201cdead\u201d to the world. But they are things that are always there, done. But here comes the art... Fred can speak better than me... here it comes, people: \u00bblet's question the art system here\u00ab... and it's the sale of construction material as work material, without seeing it in your day-to-day life, understand? How come an artist, comes from God knows where and put it inside the gallery, and it becomes art. But the things the bricklayer makes are not. Those criteria there, which end up saying what is and what is not under that umbrella of that word. It is then, this way, how these noblemen of ancient times... determined what things are or what they are not, and... that the world suits their desires! I feel that the art world is quite like that. And then, for example, if you leave this expectation of the art world, you can even enter, but the price you will pay will be higher, you have to make some concessions here, there... more thinking about that natural word that Fred used, trying to lead it like this is...\r\n\r\nCastiel<\/strong>: I think there are people who are not artists, they don't want to be, I think it's a simple problem, some people don't want to be. They don't care about this dilemma... there are problems that are ours, and not other people's. There are people who don't really care about architecture, it is not a question of whether or not they are classified as architects. It's another matter... they get the job done and that's it. There are people who sing and don't consider themselves singers. The point is that there is a... when it comes to racialized people, you know, black people, this issue is a little more complex because this category - which are categories of power - are not thought for us... artists, architects, painter singer, but still I believe in the autonomy, of us,... in the sense that there are rap singers\u2026. then I go a to crossroads... but there are rappers who don't consider themselves singers, and there are those who consider themselves to be... anyway, and it makes no sense for some of them to negotiate the singer category. Others do. And my relationship with art is the same, I developed projects for a long time, mosaic, painting, drawing, already in my childhood, and ... then, there came a time when, at the university, I said \u201cMan, I want to get into this gallery! If I have to say that I am an artist then I will say that I am!\u201d And so, it was. Now it seems that it's simple, right? but it's a difficult process. Only it's important to demystify the idea of \u200b\u200bthis artist... not everyone is an artist. I'm not talking, nor creating a hierarchy of what is, and what isn't. I'm saying that there are people who really don't care, and I learned a lot when I did \u00bbO Trauma \u00e9 Brasileiro<\/em>\u00ab<\/em> (Trauma is Brazilian), because it was an exhibition all meant to Fonte Grande, to my grandfather who had just died, and I went up, so I talked to my neighbors \u201cLook, I'm doing this project, the exhibition will start next week\u201d. Counting my on my fingers there were not even ten people from Fonte Grande. And I understood that those people, my neighbors, are free, they don't necessarily need to go there to see an exhibition in which I'm talking about them, they are not obliged to go there to honor me. They go when they want. If they want to. Our relationship goes beyond that, and I demanded from myself like \u201cfuck! No, you have to go, it's downtown \u00ab... and they said\u00ab no Castiel, I don't want to ... ahh ... go on, do it \u00ab, and others went at another time, others continued the art of another way, a relationship with art in another way. So, I think a little bit like that.<\/strong>\r\n\r\nFred: <\/strong>You said something that I ended up forgetting now, but .... Ah! You said \u201cOh, I\u2019m going to call this art, I want to go into this gallery and I\u2019m going to call this art\u201d, you said something like that ... and that was also it ... especially in the first ten, fifteen years that I was doing graffiti, we hated the word art, we hated the word artist, we hated the word academy, university ... because we also, at that time ... and it didn't change much, you know ... just like everywhere in Brazil there are these practices, you know, of subjugating, of banning, etc, etc, etc ... this will not be different at the university, it will not be different in the gallery, it will not be different in any of these places, right? ... so, we already hated the word artist at that time. We used to say, \u201cNo! I do graffiti, I don't do art.\u201d Because in our head ... even being on that side of the wall, then we already hated the word artist ... because our view is that it was a very superficial thing ... but why was that so? What were the artists that we used to see? What kind of art we used to see? What kind of art was banned? Our art was, and continues to be, banned until today by many artists ... and the academy, otherwise, they would go there to interview us, to do things too, but in the same way putting our creation, our graffiti, our spraying like this: \u201cAh, cool, there are some boys there who do graffiti\u201d, \u201cThere are some boys who do spray painting\u201d. That's why I think we were angry about that ... because we didn't have access ... to black researchers, for example. So, this was already very different, because whenever someone came to interview us ... and like here, now Joana, who is interviewing us, are usually these people. We have little access to these researches; these works of art ... we had little access to all of that. And for a long time, I didn't want to be an artist and I also don't think I want to... I say that I'm an artist and all, but I don't think that it will ever sum up who I am, because I do art too, I'm an artist too ... and I'm not just a graffiti artist, either. I do graffiti too, I rap too ... I'm not just that! I can't even sum up what I am, like this, right? But what really catches my attention, going through this thing that Joana said, is how people don't want to be, you know, mixing with what Castiel said, people don't want to be artists, they don't care, I didn't care, either ... on the contrary, it was aversion, but ... there is something about this power to appropriate things, and monetize things, and to be erase these people even more ... so, well, they are already erased, in several erasure layers, but there is the erasure from the gallery itself, a super appropriation of a technique or whatever ... and monetization of that technique, because the monetization of this technique is something I also find very complex, so... at least it is something that bothers me a lot ... because then I see myself, I go back to the past and I remember myself ... being interviewed as the \u201cgraffiti boy\u201d, like the \u201cgraffiti kid\u201d, who doesn't think... then I have access to some of the studies, you know, the texts they write about me, newspaper articles, too... then I read and thought \u201cno, that\u2019s not it\u201d. In the galleries too, when I see a lot of things made with construction material, I say \u201cbut this is not ... this is not real\u201d There are several realities, but, this approach to some things is very superficial, especially from those never, I don\u2019t know, never saw a brick, never lived in a house where there was only brick and didn\u2019t have plastering\u2026 maybe on these issues I have my head bubbling a little, seeing myself in this past like this... because I think I really go back to the past, like... a past of exploitation. Remembering that many times we were, and continue to be exploited, for sometimes not being able to see beyond the wall. It does not depend ... so, there is our part ... but often it does not depend on us, to go out there and see that there is a big world outside, to talk to other people ... and that was only possible in my life with hip-hop ... I could live in different way, but it was hip-hop really gave me this possibility to talk to other people, to see that there were black artists, black researches, books ... until then it was only hip-hop. And then, going a little back to what Joana said... we created something within this adversity ... we grew up surrounded by a wall, we grew up with many problems, and with hip-hop ...\r\n\r\nCastiel: <\/strong>and protection too, right?\r\n\r\nFred <\/strong>Yes, also a protection, a place where we know each other, we recognize ourselves. The way we organize ourselves as hip-hop, which is no longer just territorial, it is not just territory. But, put together several boys at UFES9<\/sup>. Me alone at UFES was one thing, but our hip-hop meetings were there. So, the meetings gathered people from several neighborhoods, a lot of people from the favela<\/em> going to UFES ... only that, a person from the favela<\/em> alone, at UFES, would be much more vulnerable. Hip-hop is that place, a non-physical place, a place where we meet.\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Yes... and there is this ... there is something very strong too, like this thing... of us who left a fortress, you know, from an aquilombamento10<\/sup> really, we left, but we didn't leave, but we came back, we made this transit, like this ... to inhabit these other negotiating spaces, where the right to ban also operates in a contemporary way, it is ... it is not done like... like this ... it is necessary to take the naive status from us, right? Because it seems that when we, me, you, other of our friends who are going to negotiate with the gallery, go to the institution, go to college ... yes, there may be naivete, but specifically saying about you Fredone, about Kika11<\/sup>, in short, from others ... there is no naivety between us, we are dealing with the problems that happen there in a very blunt way... because they still are ... there are still problems, the violence is still there, it's not because I went to UFES or to galleries that those things fell apart. On the contrary, it's really how we deal with these new fees, with these offers to buy and sell. For example, a grandiose project is taking place in Brazil, related to the registration and memory of black personalities, but if we were to analyze the participation of each artist, being one of them myself, I can say that we have not received a fee, only a symbolic value to develop the project. The problems continue because of the very nature of the world we live in, you know, that racializes, that is violent to gender and all, but you can't be naive, right? It is necessary to actually build that intelligence that we are living in ... and developing.\r\n\r\nFred: <\/strong>Yes, yes. Then I go back to that \u00bbthe boys\u00ab thing. The \u00bbblack boys\u00ab are here doing a painting, so with this devaluation of their own work... like \u00bbyou blacks are artists, you are coming from the peripheries, you have always been hungry... we have a trifle, some change here for you.\u201d It's not that everyone is going to act like this, but it's kind of how it is ... the best part is not for the person who did it. And that's what I talk about when I'm talking about civil construction. The person builds the house and can't live in the house... or someone goes there and films them building the house, then puts it in the gallery and sells it for a price much more expensive than a house itself. It is very confusing. This devaluation makes me go back to that \u201cboys\u201d thing\u2026 it was something that I've heard a zillion times in my life...\r\n\r\nJoana: <\/strong>No name, right?\r\n\r\nFred: <\/strong>An inferior art. Yes, emerging.\r\n\r\nJoana: <\/strong>...you have no signature, on the street you had one...\r\n\r\nFred: <\/strong>Yes. \u00bbYour job is cool and stuff, you're here, you're in high demand ... but we have a little something, which is the value ...\u00ab. I think it is complex, it is also difficult... at least for me... to deal with anger ... to make that anger speak positively... it is a subject of subjugation... and it is very complex to leave this place.\r\n\r\nCastiel<\/strong>: Yes and that is really the difficulty... it is because the plantation, the captivity is not over yet, in not a single moment, like... Joana invites us to talk about the right to ban, but at some point it does not make sense to me... because I keep thinking about what the slavery was, you know, because it is the great Brazilian issue. So how does this, how does this right to ban itself... yes, it was transported to Brazil, but with slavery everything changes because there is the purchase and sale, exactly that, of our bodies. So, it's not just an object, but it's our body becoming an object, so purchase and sale ... until today it happens, even today black people are bought, this is worth something, right? our own art work, it goes through it somehow. And then the question is to have our wisdom...Ricon12<\/sup> will talk about it... to understand this purchase value, and to understand what is not sold. I think that hip-hop teaches me a lot in many ways, there are things that are not really for sale, we can't even talk about them. Let alone sell, right!\r\n\r\nFred:<\/strong> Yes. Yes. It is because there are several layers. I usually say that things are very tightly tied to surround you on many sides, and to create several and several layers. At the same time, we are constantly evading these millions of bindings and layers. That's why we're here, that's why I got to be forty. In some moments I managed to escape, to escape from these bindings, these fences... but that's not guaranteed, that my attempt to escape these millions of things will always work, because escaping and being, let's say, malleable, to pass through the several knots, we need to use energy. And it tires you. You get tired of talking, tired of trying to turn it into something visual. It makes you tired to enter the art circuit, that way of thinking of the official circuit tires you. Tiring. Because it was made exactly by people who have a tradition of banning ... the tradition of buying. Tradition of purchasing power. Museums only collect certain types of art. Now it has changed, some little things are changing, but imagine the amount of art that has been made, that is being made, and that we do not have access to... directly, I mean...\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Yes...\r\n\r\nFred<\/strong>: And that they are treated like a child's thing. Not that a child is bad, but it is, like, something very ...\r\n\r\nCastiel<\/strong>: Primitive, right ...\r\n\r\nFred<\/strong>: Yeah! Innocent.\r\n\r\nCastiel<\/strong>: It's innocent ... that's the best word.\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> Well, I could go on, but maybe to end and not take your time anymore, something I thought to ask you ... Fred has a mural project called Latinta, in which he invites Latin American artists ... there have also been artists who were not from Latin America ... to paint there in Serra Dourada. And you have the podcast ... \u00bbMacumbas de Travesti<\/em>\u00ab<\/em>, and you also invite Latin American people, right ...\r\n\r\nCastiel: <\/strong>Yes.\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> And then I would like to hear from you ... what difference do you see in the fact of being Latin Americans within your practice? What are the reasons of these choices to make a project aimed at this?\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> So ... the podcast \u00bbMacumbas de Travestis<\/em>\u00ab<\/em>... in fact I am very interested to meet people from Latin America, because even though in Brazil I experience racial violence, I do not consider myself Brazilian, I have no pride in this country, this nationality, even though my name is Brasileiro<\/em> (Brazilian), my surname. I think that the Brazilian citizenship is a data of violence, even so because it is a... who is considered a Brazilian citizen, is the one who has the right to safety, health, well, to all of it that we are seeing. Anyway, this is a point. But still, I live in a country that is super imperialist with the other countries in Latin America. Brazil is this big because it stole a lot of land from people. There are very few integration policies with their neighbors. There are language barriers, which were historically created to separate us, due to colonization, and also the desire to do so. We want, we wish to learn English and move away from Spanish. I really want to meet these people, because they are so close, but so far. This is usually the feeling, so close, but so far. So, Joana, there is something more complex, that when we leave Latin America, that blackness enters into this Latin American identity, just as you are still white up there, you become a white Latin American woman... The blackness continues to happen together, Fredone too, and then things are even more complex... and there is everything that involves the podcast... and I even have to edit an audio now, because... how lazy I am to do that folks, I have to do, a podcast is a lot of work, my god!\r\n\r\nFred:<\/strong> Ai, ai hehe. Are you finished?\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Yes.\r\n\r\nFred:<\/strong> Latinta started in 2012 when Moska and I went to participate in an urban art festival in Chile. Then we thought, out of the blue... pretty much spontaneously ... to travel to Argentina and Uruguay, which are nearby. We took the bus, went through the Andes Mountains ... things I only saw at school ... my first international trip. On the plane, going there, I thought about connecting more, with more people. Then I thought: \u00bbI'm going to create a project to bring these people together from different countries\u00ab. I was traveling to other countries, I also received people from other countries here. One thing we had already practiced in graffiti, which comes from hip-hop. In Argentina, we spent seven days at the house of people we had never seen in our lives. This connection has been made. So, I thought of receiving people here too, it was kind of calling artistic residency what was already natural for me. To call artistic practice what was already natural. I think that these are also survival tactics, because we have done this for so many years and sometimes even I underestimated that ..., but this is a very big thing. These connections, the podcast ... a very big. Organizing a meeting of people painting is something very big. It makes a lot of difference. I believe in it a lot ... because that's how it got to me. And I mainly thought about this idea of \u200b\u200bLatin America. One due to the proximity of the territory. This possibility of traveling by bus, another, because the language, despite being a little different, you can still use a \u201cPortunhol<\/em>\u201d, to communicate, to learn ... I think we really need to learn some Spanish, to connect and to gain more strength. These countries are very connected by language, in a way, very articulate because they are countries that speak the same language. We are here a little isolated. That's what Castiel said, that Brazil colonizes several parts of Latin America, somehow Brazil invaded lands... this condition of speaking only Portuguese seems to me to be something like the United States, which only speaks English and is not very interested in learning another language, or that people speak their language... I think that learning Spanish also opened my mind to the world... people I see who are in conditions very close to mine. Learning the language makes me read in Spanish, watch a lot of videos, listen to music in Spanish, much more than before... I didn't listen to anything in Spanish. It is an attempt, mainly, to join forces mainly with people who are doing various things, many cool projects that I got to know.\r\n\r\nCastiel: <\/strong>Cool.\r\n\r\nJoana: <\/strong>Thank you!\r\n\r\nFred: <\/strong>I think it was cool. Very nice to talk to you, guys.\r\n\r\nCastiel: <\/strong>First time I have a long conversation with Fredone like this ...\r\n\r\nJoana: <\/strong>And I with you... I mean, there I go to talk shit, but this is the first time we sit down to talk.\r\n\r\nCastiel: <\/strong>Yes, it was good, it was good.\r\n\r\nFred: <\/strong>It was cool like that ...\r\n\r\nJoana: ..<\/strong>.Sorry\r\n\r\nCastiel: <\/strong>No, I was going to ask when the next Latinta will be.\r\n\r\nJoana: <\/strong>There were some talks, right?\r\n\r\nFred:<\/strong> It's on YouTube, and also on the podcast. I want to do some things this year, but probably something virtual. I think this possibility of new things is really cool, other ways of connecting like that, for example, I had a chat.\r\n\r\nJoana<\/strong>: ... it's not just about muralism... right?\r\n\r\nFred<\/strong>: I had a chat; we can even think of something afterwards. I exchanged some ideas with an artist from Mozambique, over the internet. This virtual thing made me think about it.\r\n\r\nCastiel<\/strong>: Yes.\r\n\r\nFred: <\/strong>But it was cool to talk. Talk to you too, Castiel. I always tell Joana: \u00bbWow, it's very difficult to talk to other people, like ... from the art world, maybe ... I get tired, and I can't deal with it very much. I, particularly, haven't been able to deal with it, even more during this year, when I\u2019m very anxious, more anxious than ever in my life, maybe because I\u2019m so isolated, I think it\u2019s always tiring. But exchanging ideas with you is something else, I don\u2019t know, closer. Of course, we have to learn, we have to be prepared for all of this. Talking to these people in this art world, which is more plastered. But to be honest these days I have been quite tired of this...\r\n\r\nJoana<\/strong>: ...but that is one of the questions ... \u00bb\u00abyou have to be\u00ab ... but do you have to? It is important to be prepared, but at the same time... that's what I was trying to talk about, this natural... that I was not able to speak so much about. This seems to be a concern for you. You have to change, of course it is necessary, to play the game, but ...\r\n\r\nFred: <\/strong>I wouldn't say modification ...\r\n\r\nJoana: <\/strong>... then we will end up extending it...\r\n\r\nFred<\/strong>: I say more than being physically prepared, psychologically. That... is to have my breath renewed again. I need to catch my breath in order to enter these conversations again...\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> I am also very averse to art people, but I keep doing it, right? Seeing where there are the most comfortable people, accepting the invitations because, then really... that's it, right? we wanted to become artists then there will be moments when we will have to rest that category that we decided on, this is in fact a healing process, because otherwise we are just responding to these problems, you know, problems of art and we don't get... another thing...\r\n\r\nFred: <\/strong>Yes! But it's too good to see you and Kika going... It's really good! I always say that it is a continuity of so many things that have been happening before. And after you, other people will come. It's really cool to see things moving like that, you know? That's it! Even if it's moving minimally... we will contribute so that something, in fact, at least leaves this plastered and tiring place.\r\n\r\nCastiel: <\/strong>Yes, yes, yes, yes, an immense responsibility, right, but let's do it.\r\n\r\nJoana: <\/strong>But that's it ... it ends up bringing another issue, of having to have the responsibility. But anyway, if we get distracted, we might continue...\r\n\r\nCastiel: <\/strong>Yes.\r\n\r\nJoana: <\/strong>But thanks, thank you.\r\n\r\nCastiel: <\/strong>Thank you, Joana...\r\n

Castiel Vitorino Brasileiro<\/strong> (b.\u20091996). Artist, writer and psychologist, master\u2019s student in the Clinical Psychology program at PUC-SP. She lives Transmutation as an inevitable design. She dribbles, incorporates and dives into her Bantu ontology. She took healing as a perishable moment of freedom. She studies and builds interspecific spirituality and ancestry. She was born in Fonte Grande. Vit\u00f3ria Espirito Santo, Brazil.<\/p>\r\n

Fredone Fone<\/strong> (Brazil, b. 1981) grew up in Serra city, where he started his constructions, paintings and renovations over houses and things out of necessity, when he was a child, helping his father in civil construction. All his work \u2013 which is not just the artwork \u2013 talks about the dream of owning a home, about self-construction and the hip-hop as collective and subversive tactics of existence of the peripheral black population. Fredone recently received the Pollock-Krasner Foundation Grant, New York, USA 2020\/21.<\/p>\r\n

Joana Quiroga<\/strong>\u2019s work examines daily life and its philosophical depth, always looking at the specificities of each site, and bringing into the discussion the reality that she comes from, Brazil. She holds a bachelor and masters in Philosophy of Arts (Ufes, Brazil). Currently she is researching the parallels between social inequality and bread. joanaquiroga.com<\/p>\r\n<\/a>"},{"acf_fc_layout":"content_footnotes","bgcolor":"","footnotes_list_hide_numbers":false,"footnotes":[{"footnote":"Expression literally translated from the original in German: https:\/\/de.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Bannrecht<\/a> (accessed on May 30, 2021)"},{"footnote":"https:\/\/pt.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Banalidade<\/a> (accessed on May 30, 2021)"},{"footnote":"https:\/\/castielvitorinobrasileiro.com\/podcast<\/a> (accessed on May 30, 2021)"},{"footnote":"https:\/\/fredonefone.com\/Visao-central-periferica<\/a> (accessed on May 30, 2021)"},{"footnote":"https:\/\/castielvitorinobrasileiro.com\/_foto_sdm<\/a> (accessed on May 30, 2021)"},{"footnote":"Peripheral neighborhoods of Grande Vit\u00f3ria-ES, Brazil."},{"footnote":"About this, Fredone published the book \u00bbRap: the power of speech\u00ab.https:\/\/fredonefone.com\/Rap-A-Forca-da-Fala<\/a> (accessed on May 30, 2021)"},{"footnote":"Projota, musician: https:\/\/pt.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Projota<\/a> (accessed on May 30, 2021)"},{"footnote":"Universidade Federal do Esp\u00edrito Santo, or Federal University of Esp\u00edrito Santo."},{"footnote":"In Castiel's words \u00bbaquilombamento is synonym for quilombo. And in this text, he refers to the Brazilian context.\u00ab"},{"footnote":"Kika Carvalho, artist (https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/kikacarvalhokika\/?hl=pt<\/a> (accessed on May 30, 2021)"},{"footnote":"Rincon Sapi\u00eancia, artist: https:\/\/pt.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Rincon_Sapi%C3%AAncia<\/a> (accessed on May 30, 2021)"}]},{"acf_fc_layout":"content_txt","bgcolor":"","bgcolor_custom":"","layout_col_size":8,"txt_cols":"is-1-txtcol","txt":"

Conversa com Castiel Vitorino Brasileiro e Fredone Fone, inspirada pela palavra Bannrecht<\/em> (direito de banir)<\/strong><\/span><\/h3>\r\nJoana Quiroga: <\/strong>Vamos ver se eu vou conseguir expor as coisas que eu tenho pensado... por que? Por que ent\u00e3o Castiel e Fredone juntos? \u2026 Pesquisando essa coisa do p\u00e3o e tal, e a\u00ed pensando isso aqui, eu chego a essa... pra mim \u00e9 muito estranho at\u00e9 o nome, e \u00e9 isso que tamb\u00e9m me move: \u201cDireito de banir.\u201d1<\/sup> Os nobres tinham o direito de banir. Porque funcionava assim... por exemplo, as pessoas de uma vila l\u00e1 tinham que moer o seu trigo ou assar o seu p\u00e3o nesses lugares, sen\u00e3o eles eram taxados ou punidos, etc... as pessoas eram obrigadas a isso, se a pessoa fosse pega fazendo essas a\u00e7\u00f5es em casa, elas tamb\u00e9m eram punidas e uma s\u00e9rie de outras coisas\u2026\r\n\r\nCastiel<\/strong>: Isso na Alemanha?\r\n\r\nJoana<\/strong>: Isso, mas teve em v\u00e1rios lugares, no caso, em Portugal por exemplo se chamava \u201cBanalidade\u201d2<\/sup>, que tamb\u00e9m \u00e9 uma palavra super forte, \u00e9\u2026 n\u00e3o \u00e9 s\u00f3 o p\u00e3o e o forno por exemplo, n\u00e3o lembro qual palavra que fala, onde as pessoas moem a uva pra, depois fazer o vinho...\r\n\r\nCastie<\/strong>l:\u00a0 humm...tamb\u00e9m n\u00e3o sei\r\n\r\nJoana<\/strong>: Enfim\u2026 pra fazer cerveja, pra ca\u00e7ar, pra usar a floresta, pegar os tocos... tudo era do nobre\u2026 ent\u00e3o a pessoa cobrava o pre\u00e7o que queria, e por a\u00ed vai. Mas mais que uma \u00e9poca no tempo, como isso funda uma forma de pensar que n\u00e3o foi embora\u2026 pessoas com mais poderes dizerem como, quando e onde as pessoas t\u00eam suas condi\u00e7\u00f5es de vida... com um alimento\u00a0 simb\u00f3lico como o p\u00e3o, n\u00e9... tipo assim \u201cO que as pessoas v\u00e3o comer? Quando as pessoas v\u00e3o comer? A que pre\u00e7o?\u201d Eles inventaram para se custear tamb\u00e9m... os nobres, cobravam o que eles queriam, n\u00e3o s\u00f3 como uma forma de controlar a popula\u00e7\u00e3o, mas tamb\u00e9m para financiar e custear a sua pr\u00f3pria vida... por exemplo, um nobre entrava numa guerra a\u00ed, ele financiava essas guerras atrav\u00e9s dos impostos, e a\u00ed por exemplo ele ia aumentar a taxa pra voc\u00ea usar o moinho...\r\n\r\nCastiel<\/strong>: E esse banimento, ia pra algum lugar espec\u00edfico? A pessoa?\r\n\r\nJoana<\/strong>:\u00a0 o bani\u2026 \u00e9, como assim? N\u00e3o sei se entendi.\r\n\r\nCastie<\/strong>l: \u00c9 que, o direito de banir n\u00e3o \u00e9, banir uma pessoa de um lugar n\u00e3o \u00e9. A pessoa ia pra algum lugar?\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> E a puni\u00e7\u00e3o tamb\u00e9m era determinada pelo nobre, entendeu? Se uma pessoa criava leis, criava puni\u00e7\u00e3o, criava um pre\u00e7o...\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Era tudo dela.\r\n\r\nJoana<\/strong>: Hum rum, mas isso literalmente... isso \u00e9 um outro cap\u00edtulo que n\u00e3o necessariamente est\u00e1 relacionado, mas como disse, n\u00e9 \u00e9 uma mentalidade... os agricultores eram considerados propriedade da terra, que era do nobre\u2026 enfim a\u00ed que se chamava servid\u00e3o e tal, todo um outro bra\u00e7o disso tudo a\u00ed. Mas pensando esse neg\u00f3cio do direito de banir e pensando onde eu to\u2026 como a experi\u00eancia de estar por exemplo aqui na Europa, ou na experi\u00eancia de estar fazendo arte aqui na Europa, outras formas desses direitos de banir, tamb\u00e9m ganham forma...\r\n\r\nCastiel<\/strong>; Voc\u00ea est\u00e1 em qual cidade da Alemanha?\r\n\r\nJoana: <\/strong>\u00e9 Stuttgart.\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Hum rum\r\n\r\nJoana<\/strong>: Mas a\u00ed enfim, vamos ver se eu consigo.... eu to lendo ali pesquisando sobre o p\u00e3o e vejo esse neg\u00f3cio ali chamado de \u201cdireito de banir\u201d \u00e9\u2026 o trabalho de voc\u00eas tem uma compreens\u00e3o de isso tudo, mas tem tamb\u00e9m uma de ligar o foda-se...\r\n\r\n[...]\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Hurum sim sim, dif\u00edcil... me fez lembrar da sua pr\u00f3pria pesquisa n\u00e9 do p\u00e3o, porque quando eu fui na, na Homero Massena que onde que eu tive o contato com ela... eu sou apaixonada pela sua pesquisa... e a quest\u00e3o da fermenta\u00e7\u00e3o como \u00e9 uma rea\u00e7\u00e3o qu\u00edmica com o ar, que se modifica de acordo com o ambiente. Essa sua frase agora que voc\u00ea me disse, nos disse, n\u00e9, de se sentir desconfort\u00e1vel n\u00e9, com o que est\u00e1 a sua volta tamb\u00e9m me fez lembrar do pr\u00f3prio processo de\u2026 da fermenta\u00e7\u00e3o, de fazer p\u00e3o, o pr\u00f3prio processo que de alguma forma essa rela\u00e7\u00e3o de desconfort\u00e1vel tamb\u00e9m n\u00e9, de fermentar.\r\n\r\nJoana: <\/strong>Sim... eu tava ouvindo um pouco do seu podcast3<\/sup>, e isso \u00e9 umas das perguntas... mas a fermenta\u00e7\u00e3o tem uma coisa muito pr\u00f3xima.. umas das pernas poss\u00edveis, assim, dessa pesquisa que \u00e9 a fermenta\u00e7\u00e3o, tamb\u00e9m \u00e9 uma naturaliza\u00e7\u00e3o do processo da morte, porque a morte \u00e9 uma\u2026 A fermenta\u00e7\u00e3o \u00e9 o processo de algo estragar... se voc\u00ea deixar sem mexer \u00e9... vira algo que voc\u00ea n\u00e3o pode consumir, mas justamente esse processo de apodrecer... esses microorganismos eles tanto fazem p\u00e3o como fazem o cad\u00e1ver virar mat\u00e9ria org\u00e2nica pra entrar na terra, entendeu? \u2026 isso tem uma rela\u00e7\u00e3o com a morte e\u2026 n\u00e3o traz isso como como fim, como algo moralizado, se \u00e9 bom, se \u00e9 ruim, se n\u00e3o deveria ser, n\u00e3o se trata disso, mas justamente quanto mais \u00edntimo voc\u00ea \u00e9 esse processo de morte, mais ele se torna de repente... o seu amanh\u00e3... N\u00e3o sei se eu viajei demais no seu coment\u00e1rio?\r\n\r\nCastiel<\/strong>: N\u00e3o, foi isso a\u00ed, eu tamb\u00e9m acredito na morte. Eu acho que a morte \u00e9 necess\u00e1ria e algo que caracteriza a vida, em n\u00edvel\u00a0 planet\u00e1rio e at\u00e9 mesmo nossa gal\u00e1xia, mas eu n\u00e3o tenho nenhum medo de usar a palavra morte, pelo contr\u00e1rio, sempre a uso. Amo a palavra morte, e assim geralmente eu separo a morte da aniquila\u00e7\u00e3o, acho que esse medo que voc\u00ea demonstrou assim, n\u00e9, de ser mal entendida com a palavra morte, acho que ele fala de um processo outro, da aniquila\u00e7\u00e3o. De voc\u00ea querer se esquecer dessa vida.\u00a0 Aniquilar a possibilidade de presen\u00e7a, mas a morte \u00e9 o pr\u00f3prio nome do projeto, n\u00e9? Transmuta\u00e7\u00e3o \u00e9 uma transforma\u00e7\u00e3o na forma de viver. Com o p\u00e3o, ou com as pr\u00f3prias almas, e com tudo que h\u00e1. Os cad\u00e1veres. Eu gosto da morte.\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> ...um pouco sim, tenho receio... N\u00e3o! Tenho muito receio mesmo\u2026 ter que ficar explicando as coisas demais, \u00e9 uma mania tamb\u00e9m, talvez por ter estudado filosofia, sei l\u00e1\u2026\r\n\r\nCastiel<\/strong>:Eu lembrei que voc\u00ea fez filosofia, \u00e9 verdade...\r\n\r\nJoana<\/strong>: Enfim n\u00e9 rs... tinha meio que colocado uma ordem de perguntas, mas j\u00e1 que a gente falou nessa coisa da morte\u2026 acho que isso tudo que a gente t\u00e1 falando se junta tamb\u00e9m com o tema da residencia quest\u00e3o das muta\u00e7\u00f5es... porque a muta\u00e7\u00e3o tamb\u00e9m \u00e9 um processo natural que acontece o tempo todo nas c\u00e9lulas, quaisquer c\u00e9lulas, elas est\u00e3o se transformando... essa coisa do livro de ci\u00eancia, que uma celulazinha vai ser igual a outra... isso assim praticamente n\u00e3o existe, as c\u00e9lulas est\u00e3o sempre mudando e\u2026 mas a gente moraliza tamb\u00e9m isso, n\u00e9? Tanto na escala do microrganismo pequenininho e na escala humana, fodida, escrota, que diz \u201ca regra \u00e9 essa. A muta\u00e7\u00e3o? Isso \u00e9 o que sai da norma\u201d. E a\u00ed voc\u00ea classifica tamb\u00e9m... o racioc\u00ednio continua por tr\u00e1s das muta\u00e7\u00f5es... diante da ci\u00eancia continua tendo um pouquinho a\u00ed o direito de banir na leitura da pr\u00f3pria vida, entende? Como voc\u00ea vai classificar a vida? Enfim, posso viajar aqui porque acho tem a ver com o v\u00edrus, o v\u00edrus que t\u00e1 aqui fazendo a gente ficar de quarentena, tecnicamente ele n\u00e3o \u00e9 um ser vivo. Porque ele n\u00e3o tem l\u00e1 as caracter\u00edsticas, falta sei l\u00e1 o que... uma coisa que n\u00e3o tem vida, mas que t\u00e1 mudando o tempo todo, e olha o que ele t\u00e1 fazendo! Essa defini\u00e7\u00e3o da vida mesmo \u00e9 uma coisa muito ocidental, do \u201cdireito de banir\u201d que diz que o que \u00e9 vivo, e o que n\u00e3o \u00e9 vivo. Ent\u00e3o como que esse modo de pensar, esse sistema operacional que t\u00e1 em tudo, l\u00ea do v\u00edrus at\u00e9\u2026 entende? Mas isso \u00e9 outra coisa, n\u00e3o posso ficar aqui viajando, porque eu quero mostrar o que me faz sentir o trabalho de voc\u00eas...\r\n\r\nEssa mentalidade do direito de banir faz com que lugares invadidos pelos criadores dessa mentalidade\u2026 outros lugares em que n\u00e3o havia pelo menos essa mentalidade. Nesses lugares a proximidade com a morte se torna algo constante. A gente nasce banido enquanto continente o fato de a gente ser de um continente americano\u2026 que nem pode se dizer americano porque os Estados Unidos tomou pra si tamb\u00e9m isso de ser americano... mas enfim, isso tamb\u00e9m \u00e9 uma palavra horr\u00edvel porque \u00e9 um nome de um dos invasores: Am\u00e9rica\u2026 enfim... a gente j\u00e1 nasce banido enquanto continente, como incapaz de ter autonomia econ\u00f4mica, de pensamento, conhecimento, enfim, tudo que a gente pensar, a gente j\u00e1 t\u00e1 meio... a gente \u00e9 o n\u00e3o-eles. Mas saindo um pouco desse \u201cfilosof\u00eas\u201d, essa proximidade com a morte \u00e9 di\u00e1ria, concreta\u2026 \u00e9 necess\u00e1rio reivindicar sempre essa morte, essa vida diante dessa morte, dessa nega\u00e7\u00e3o \u2026 tudo t\u00e1 feito pra n\u00e3o se viver, e quando muito voc\u00ea consegue sobreviver. E dentro disso tudo no trabalho de voc\u00eas, na pesquisa e na vida, n\u00e9, porque que \u00e9 isso\u2026 voc\u00eas trabalham o que voc\u00eas s\u00e3o\u2026 por caminhos muito diferentes... eu sinto que voc\u00eas trabalham com isso, construindo e destruindo em cima dessa experi\u00eancia di\u00e1ria com a morte, digamos assim... em diferentes escalas, porque isso se d\u00e1 em diferentes escalas, n\u00e9\u2026 no n\u00edvel religioso, no n\u00edvel literal, estat\u00edstico... que amea\u00e7am o corpo f\u00edsico, mas ao mesmo tempo t\u00e1 sempre moldando. Essa morte, essa essa mentalidade do direito de banir, amea\u00e7a o corpo f\u00edsico, mas molda o que n\u00e3o \u00e9 f\u00edsico, e eu acho que o trabalho de voc\u00eas traduz isso que n\u00e3o d\u00e1 pra traduzir... \u00e9 uma coisa que voc\u00eas conseguem colocar em camadas muito diversas. Por exemplo o trabalho recente que o Fred tem do \u201cVis\u00e3o Central Perif\u00e9rica\u201d4<\/sup>, n\u00e3o sei se voc\u00ea chegou a ver\u2026 [...] sim, mas \u00e9 porque eu acho estranho estar nesse lugar, entendeu? Eu n\u00e3o acho que deveria ter esse lugar de, \u00e9 enfim\u2026 fale a\u00ed gente, se n\u00e3o vou continuar nesse lugar que eu acho, acho que n\u00e3o perten\u00e7o a ele\u2026 Voc\u00eas diriam que voc\u00eas t\u00eam uma experi\u00eancia de uma proximidade com a ... Morte faz parte do trabalho de voc\u00eas?\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Quer responder Fred?\r\n\r\nFredone:<\/strong> Pode ser. Ent\u00e3o... \u00e9 bastante estranho, porque at\u00e9 eu come\u00e7ar a entender um pouco mais o mundo, mesmo depois de estar dentro do hip-hop por muitos anos, comecei a perceber isso conforme eu ia me afastando mais do lugar de onde eu cresci. Porque parecia uma coisa t\u00e3o natural... pensar que eu quase morri, vi gente morrendo, vi coisas acontecendo do meu lado, e que no outro dia eu estava no mesmo lugar, nos lugares onde fisicamente o risco era constante, mas eu voltava naquele mesmo lugar, virava a noite naquele lugar...\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> Voc\u00ea diz \u201cno lugar\u201d... voc\u00ea diz o bairro onde voc\u00ea cresceu de modo geral?\r\n\r\nFredone<\/strong>: Fisicamente estando l\u00e1... da\u00ed eu acho que n\u00e3o tinha tanto medo. Hoje talvez essa morte pra mim venha mais com essa coisa de medo de morrer, digamos assim, ao lembrar das coisas que aconteceram e que continuam acontecendo, mas que hoje j\u00e1 vejo muito mais de fora. De fato sou algu\u00e9m constru\u00eddo nesses ambientes, onde a morte est\u00e1 muito perto, e percebo que por pouco eu tamb\u00e9m n\u00e3o fui. Eu acho que chega mais pr\u00f3ximo do que a Castiel falou, sobre esse aniquilamento, essa palavra\u2026 mas como essa coisa t\u00e1 muito constante, e como hoje posso me ver nessa situa\u00e7\u00e3o, mas n\u00e3o era uma coisa passava pela minha cabe\u00e7a, de morte, aniquila\u00e7\u00e3o, exclus\u00e3o, etc... Demorou, sei l\u00e1, trinta anos da minha vida para eu come\u00e7ar a enxergar isso. Porque crescendo no meio de tudo isso, rodeado de todas essas coisas, era t\u00e3o natural que eu pensava, inocentemente, que todo mundo passava por isso. Porque eu n\u00e3o via do lado de fora do muro. Falando sobre o trabalho \u00bbVis\u00e3o central-perif\u00e9rica\u00ab, tinha esse muro na minha frente, uma lajota na minha frente, dos meus olhos. E a\u00ed quando eu viro essa lajota, vejo v\u00e1rios furos, vejo que tem um monte de coisas acontecendo fora daqui\u2026 Demorei muito para perceber que eu estava de um lado do muro...\r\n\r\nJoana<\/strong> E voc\u00ea acha? N\u00e3o desculpa...\r\n\r\nFredone:<\/strong> Eu acho que essas coisas foram entrando em mim, essas vis\u00f5es, elas foram entrando na minha cabe\u00e7a, mas eu n\u00e3o percebia. S\u00f3 que elas entraram, trabalharam na minha cabe\u00e7a e continuam trabalhando at\u00e9 hoje. \u00c9 dif\u00edcil eu sair dessa condi\u00e7\u00e3o de estar do outro lado do muro, de ver que eu estou em v\u00e1rias partes desse muro: do lado de c\u00e1, do lado de l\u00e1, em cima, em baixo. E quando eu me vejo um pouco mais olhando do lado de c\u00e1 do muro, vejo como todas aquelas coisas entraram na minha cabe\u00e7a e foram construindo quem eu sou, mas eu n\u00e3o me dava tantos conta disso. Agora posso dizer: Caramba! Tudo aquilo que entrou na minha cabe\u00e7a, eu nem sabia que estava existindo, nem sabia que existia um muro, e agora eu t\u00f4 vendo... isso me transformou total. Muitas vezes n\u00e3o consigo me libertar desse medo. Talvez seja isso: eu nunca parei pra pensar desse jeito que a Castiel falou\u2026 mas \u00e9 essa coisa da aniquila\u00e7\u00e3o\u2026 acho que \u00e9 um medo de alguma coisa mais brutal, sabe? Porque \u00e9 isso que entrou na minha cabe\u00e7a como algo natural, e isso... mexe comigo... agora.\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Sim, eu... voc\u00ea ia perguntar, Joana?\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> N\u00e3o, eu acho que ele acabou respondendo porque justamente... n\u00e3o \u00e9 porque ele n\u00e3o tinha, talvez, nem ia perguntar na verdade. Olhar essas palavras... essa experi\u00eancia da morte est\u00e1 acontecendo, e isso n\u00e3o estava ali, fazendo coisas nele\u2026\r\n\r\nCastiel<\/strong> hurum, sim, a minha rela\u00e7\u00e3o com a morte \u00e9 bem parecida com... com essa do Fredone porque realmente foi depois de eu sair da Fonte Grande... \u00e9, no meu primeiro ano do ensino m\u00e9dio, porque eu vivi o ensino fundamental at\u00e9 a oitava s\u00e9rie na comunidade, numa escola daqui da Fonte Grande... e quando eu vou pro ensino m\u00e9dio, eu vou pra uma escola que ainda que continue sendo no centro de Vit\u00f3ria, \u00e9 longe da Fonte Grande, eu vou a p\u00e9, mas \u00e9 longe. E l\u00e1 eu encontro uma mistura de pessoas e passo a ver como que o meu corpo retinto, n\u00e9, ele come\u00e7a a ser redistribu\u00eddo, a ser recolocado assim nessa rela\u00e7\u00e3o social, porque aqui na Fonte Grande eu vivia em entre meus semelhantes, e quando a gente sai desse terreno de nascen\u00e7a, \u00e9 um deslocamento da vida mesmo, n\u00e9... a gente passa a posicionar-se socialmente de outra forma... mas eu tenho muita raiva disso! Eu tenho muita raiva disso que acontece... ent\u00e3o, cara, eu fiz uma promessa... eu falei: olha... porque assim... a Fonte Grande tamb\u00e9m \u00e9 importante porque \u00e9 o ponto mais alto da ilha de Vit\u00f3ria, ent\u00e3o eu sempre olhei pro mar e eu tinha muito medo de chegar uma onda enorme e matar todo mundo. S\u00f3 que hoje eu vejo que n\u00e3o era um medo, era mais um desejo dessa onda chegar logo... e subir e mergulhar todo mundo porque eu sabia que na Fonte Grande eu estaria segura. Ent\u00e3o... mas a\u00ed eu saindo daqui, eu fiquei pensando... cara, eu n\u00e3o sou da<\/em> Fonte Grande, eu sou do planeta Terra, n\u00e9... eu sou... isso tudo \u00e9 meu, isso tudo \u00e9 nosso, como o pr\u00f3prio Fredone tamb\u00e9m fala, n\u00e9... de olhar em outra perspectiva, entender que existem outras possibilidades de viver esse planeta... ent\u00e3o\u2026 \u00e9 um exerc\u00edcio de coragem, n\u00e9, ir pra fora\u2026 sair do espa\u00e7o de nascen\u00e7a... e entender que tudo aqui... a gente nasceu em tudo isso e como continuar, n\u00e9, mesmo com medo.\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> Voc\u00eas dois falam de medo, e raiva\u2026 O que te causa raiva? O que te causa medo que antes n\u00e3o tinha?\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Voc\u00ea quer falar Fredone?\r\n\r\nFredone:<\/strong> Pode continuar\u2026 Pode mandar hehe\r\n\r\nCastiel<\/strong>: \u00c9, eu... assim no n\u00edvel assim, acho que quando voc\u00ea me pergunta do medo eu fico pensando no n\u00edvel molecular, micro molecular. Acho que de algum modo essas mol\u00e9culas t\u00eam medo. \u00c9.. n\u00e3o medo, mas essa transmuta\u00e7\u00e3o, essa mudan\u00e7a cotidiana e ininterrupta e... que n\u00e3o se estaciona nunca a vida, o mudo t\u00e1 sempre se transmutando, se modificando, sempre e gera um medo... mas na verdade, agora que eu t\u00f4 falando... acho que j\u00e1 nem concordo com o que t\u00f4 falando porque... ah, acho o medo da transmuta\u00e7\u00e3o \u00e9 de fato um medo colonial, num n\u00edvel de\u2026\r\n\r\nJoana.<\/strong> Sim...\r\n\r\nCastiel<\/strong>: \u00c9... um medo criado, n\u00e9? Um medo da mudan\u00e7a, medo do encontro com o diferente, um medo de se sentir desestabilizada, de olhar e perceber que, nossa! Tudo que eu imaginava, tudo que eu utilizava pra perceber, talvez n\u00e3o seja preciso neste momento, e isso causa medo porque... tamb\u00e9m causa coragem. Porque eu olho pro lado, olho pra voc\u00eas, olho pras plantas... porque eu sou apaixonada pelas plantas e vejo, essas meninas continuaram... \u00e9 porque eu acabei de mudar de casa ent\u00e3o muitas plantas morreram, n\u00e3o gostaram desse espa\u00e7o, e eu t\u00f4 aprendendo muito com isso, que tem espa\u00e7os que n\u00e3o \u00e9 o que elas querem, e pronto, s\u00f3 isso mesmo.\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> \u00e9... mas eu acho que \u00e9 bem isso a\u00ed... do tipo que o Fred tem pensado mais ultimamente... como ele tem falado desse lado do medo. Desculpa minha inten\u00e7\u00e3o n\u00e3o \u00e9 expor, justamente \u00e9 pensar um pouco a teia disso tudo. Mas como que nesse medo a proximidade \u00e9 t\u00e3o grande... e tipo, parece que de repente voc\u00ea vira o tijolo e v\u00ea outra coisa... \u00e9 t\u00e3o pr\u00f3xima a cara na parede que de repente quando voc\u00ea v\u00ea que tem um buraco... faz \u201ctipluft\u201d. \u00c9 o que voc\u00ea t\u00e1 falando, n\u00e9? Tem o constante medo, e a\u00ed voc\u00ea, n\u00e9... pelo menos pegando as palavras que voc\u00ea t\u00e1 falando a\u00ed, que se voc\u00ea acolher esse medo da maneira que esse invasor nos trouxe... que a gente t\u00e1 com medo, sentir e aceitar que a gente n\u00e3o tem espa\u00e7o\u2026 isso realmente n\u00e3o te deixa olhar para al\u00e9m da parede\u2026 t\u00e1 feito pra isso, voc\u00ea n\u00e3o olhar que aquelas paredes t\u00eam buracos... voc\u00ea n\u00e3o olhar que as plantas voltam a nascer\u2026 enfim, como que a vida \u00e9 maior que isso\u2026 como que vida mesmo \u00e9 muito maior que esse lugar aqui, permitido... um pouco onde eu queria chegar... essa experi\u00eancia e proximidade com a morte\u2026 ah, eu teria que parar pra pensar melhor essa diferen\u00e7a que voc\u00ea trouxe de morte e aniquila\u00e7\u00e3o, mas eu n\u00e3o vou conseguir fazer isso agora\u2026 mas como que voc\u00eas pegam no trabalho de voc\u00eas e fazem disso tipo uma porta secreta, que entra num mundo m\u00e1gico, vamos dizer assim, m\u00e1gico \u00e9 tamb\u00e9m, eu n\u00e3o vou dar conta de trabalhar devidamente agora\u2026 isso que t\u00e1 na mol\u00e9cula como voc\u00ea falou, como voc\u00eas tornam isso ponto de partida, vamos dizer assim?\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Pontos de partida pra que?\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> Pra afirmar um mundo que n\u00e3o seja afirmar... tipo assim \u201cah! Eu n\u00e3o posso nada?\u201d \u201cVoc\u00ea n\u00e3o me permite isso? Cansei! Vou inventar o que eu quiser!\u201d Enfim, uma experi\u00eancia t\u00e3o radical com o banimento que eu acho que o criador desse sistema operacional, dessa mentalidade, jamais vai entender. E a\u00ed come\u00e7a um movimento de afirma\u00e7\u00e3o, do tipo assim\u2026 voc\u00ea quis me envenenar... mas o seu veneno se tornou um ant\u00eddoto, vamos dizer assim... vejo em voc\u00eas uma cria\u00e7\u00e3o de uma filosofia... nuns termos muito mais generoso e amplo do que a filosofia acad\u00eamica e blablabla, mas numa filosofia muito pr\u00f3pria... afirmar a vis\u00e3o central e perif\u00e9rica, entendeu? \u00c9 como eu entendo um pouco do \u201csagrado feminino de merda\u201d5<\/sup>... \u00e9\u2026 enfim\u2026 t\u00f4 eu falando de novo demais\u2026 voc\u00eas tem algo a dizer?\r\n\r\nFredone: <\/strong>Ent\u00e3o, eu ia falar sobre o medo, n\u00e9, e ia falar um pouco sobre isso a\u00ed que voc\u00ea falou\u2026 tipo, eu acho que\u2026 n\u00e3o, tenho total convic\u00e7\u00e3o que \u00e9 uma coisa t\u00e3o forte, assim, n\u00e9...eu t\u00f4 com quarenta anos, e pelo menos nesses trinta anos, me vendo de um lado do muro, n\u00e3o conseguindo enxergar o mundo do lado de fora... \u00e9 muito dif\u00edcil, inclusive, reverter tudo isso, e em t\u00e3o pouco tempo\u2026 pelo menos pra mim... eu tenho muita dificuldade. Ent\u00e3o na mesma hora que eu transformo tudo isso em uma raiva, num motor pra fazer algumas coisas, que eu venho fazendo ao longo da vida... ao mesmo tempo parece que essa for\u00e7a se esgota... fico exausto de botar esse motor pra funcionar... Da\u00ed parece que preciso de um tempo pra fazer de novo. Mas eu n\u00e3o diria que foi calculado, pelo menos nesses trinta anos de vida, ou, sei l\u00e1... pelo menos uns vinte cinco anos pintando na rua\u2026 n\u00e3o foi calculado, assim... Foi surgindo.... E acho que foi surgindo de um jeito t\u00e3o natural, que de algum modo a gente aprendeu a se organizar. E foi atrav\u00e9s do hip-hop. Foi quando eu encontrei um amigo\u2026 sei l\u00e1, fui fazendo amigos, n\u00e9... de S\u00e3o Pedro, de Vila Garrido, de Feu Rosa... gente de Serra Dourada, Jardim Carapina6<\/sup>, ent\u00e3o assim... normalmente o hip-hop foi juntando pessoas que vieram da periferia, e noventa por cento daquela \u00e9poca dos anos noventa... quando eu comecei a me aproximar do hip-hop... noventa por cento era negro e de periferia. A gente j\u00e1 se juntava. A gente n\u00e3o fez um planejamento tipo \u201cvou me juntar com os jovens desse bairro perif\u00e9ricos e pessoas negras\u201d. A gente n\u00e3o planejou nada disso... a gente pegou algo que tava no ar, como o rap que chegou at\u00e9 mim, como a m\u00fasica que t\u00e1 nos auto falantes e entra no meu ouvido...\u00a0 a gente foi se conectando atrav\u00e9s disso. N\u00e3o era exatamente um plano\u2026 \u00e9 claro que t\u00ednhamos v\u00e1rios planos... de v\u00e1rias formas, mas eu n\u00e3o falei: \u00bbAgora vou descontar a minha raiva, ou vou dar o troco!\u00ab. N\u00e3o foi isso. As coisas foram vindo, fazendo parte da minha vida, junto com toda a minha viv\u00eancia no bairro, mas isso tamb\u00e9m me fez conectar com outras pessoas, ir pra outros bairros pintar, ir para eventos, me organizar com pessoas de outros bairros, me juntar para fazer um cartaz, carregar uma caixa de som, ligar o som, e depois de terminar, desmontar tudo, desmontar o palco improvisado. Talvez hoje seja mais planejado, mas continua sendo... eu vivendo, assim... umas coisas que v\u00e3o fluindo, fluindo de mim, fluindo do meu jeito de pensar, no jeito como me conecto. E, claro! ...fui formado principalmente nos anos 1990. Ent\u00e3o o hip-hop daquela \u00e9poca me formou, com um jeito de ver o mundo muito diferente de hoje. N\u00e3o que aquela \u00e9poca seja pior ou melhor, mas s\u00e3o resultados de vis\u00f5es perif\u00e9ricas que foram passando de mente em mente\u2026 a gente passando essas vis\u00f5es, para chegar at\u00e9 hoje... os mais velhos aprendendo com os mais novos, os mais novos aprendendo com os mais velhos, e a gente aprendendo a se auto-organizar, sem ler nada praticamente, porque o que a gente tinha de leitura era feito pelos MCs que escreviam as letras e cantavam... est\u00e3o estavam lendo as pr\u00f3prias letras... ent\u00e3o era esse o nosso acesso \u00e0 leitura. Uma leitura, mas atrav\u00e9s da voz, como se fossem letras de rap lido.7<\/sup> E isso continua sendo muito, muito natural\u2026 eu n\u00e3o conseguiria funcionar se n\u00e3o fosse desse jeito...\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> \u00c9 muito foda porque eu tambem tenho uma rela\u00e7\u00e3o muito forte com o rap, mas essa rela\u00e7\u00e3o come\u00e7ou na minha adolescencia... 2010 ou um pouquinho antes no in\u00edcio, e \u00e9 outra gera\u00e7\u00e3o de rap, bem probem\u00e1tica inclusive, a gera\u00e7\u00e3o do Projota8<\/sup> \u2026 ent\u00e3o, por acompanhar seu trabalho Fred, e outras amigas e amigos que trabalham na rua com o graffiti e o pixo, enfim. Voc\u00ea falou agora do registro do desenho que teve que aprender porque o desenho vai embora... isso \u00e9 a morte. Voc\u00ea lida diretamente com o fim daquela forma... mas novamente, n\u00e3o \u00e9 essa morte de aniquila\u00e7\u00e3o. Claro que a cidade.. ela nos odeia, n\u00e9, determinadas formas que imprimimos nos pr\u00e9dios... mas ainda assim, dependendo do pr\u00e9dio quando voc\u00ea descasca uma tinta, acontece uns vest\u00edgios, uns vest\u00edgios de algo, algumas coisas que a gente imprimiu ali... algumas coisas, n\u00e9. Ent\u00e3o a morte est\u00e1 presente como essa transmuta\u00e7\u00e3o, como modifica\u00e7\u00e3o da forma.\r\n\r\nFredone:<\/strong> Sim.\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> A\u00ed eu que t\u00f4 aqui pensando por qual portinha eu entro agora... mas uma coisa que me chamou aten\u00e7\u00e3o, no caso acho que o Fred falou um pouco mais destacado \u201cQue aconteceu de forma natural...\u201d. Voc\u00ea usou essa express\u00e3o... que a sua experi\u00eancia \u00e9 com o rap o que voc\u00ea foi aprendendo tudo mais de forma natural. E a\u00ed eu fiquei pensando... e tamb\u00e9m porque eu tamb\u00e9m estou aqui experimentando um certo tipo de lidar com o mundo arte, eu pensei em perguntar a voc\u00eas sobre essa passagem, entre o modo natural de experimentar certas coisas, para entrar no mundo da arte, que... repete esse direito de banir.\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> O mundo da arte?\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> \u00c9... partindo dessa ideia que eu vou tentar explicar, no mundo da arte, de modo geral, s\u00f3 a ideia de arte j\u00e1 super \u00e9 problem\u00e1tica... essa defini\u00e7\u00e3o do que \u00e9 ou n\u00e3o \u00e9 arte. Quem faz ou quem n\u00e3o faz arte? Quem \u00e9 valorizado quem n\u00e3o \u00e9? Quem vende? E ao dizer, por exemplo, o que n\u00e3o \u00e9 arte, diz pra alguns jeitos de se expressar, pra algumas maneiras de fazer isso ou aquilo, que de repente fazem de um jeito, ou se comportam de outro, que de repente n\u00e3o satisfaz\u2026 o Fred. No exemplo da experi\u00eancia de vida dele com trabalhar como pedreiro\u2026 isso \u00e9 a mat\u00e9ria e a pesquisa... \u00e9 uma quest\u00e3o muito importante no trabalho do Fred... como ele se faz, as coisas que faz... se ele fizesse sem ter essa etiqueta de \u201carte\u201d, talvez ele fosse invis\u00edvel, n\u00e9, \u201cmorto\u201d para o mundo. Mas s\u00e3o umas coisas que sempre est\u00e3o ali, feitas. Mas a\u00ed vem a arte\u2026 o Fred pode falar melhor do que eu... a\u00ed vem gente: \u201cvamos questionar o sistema de arte aqui\u201d... e \u00e9 a venda do material de constru\u00e7\u00e3o como material de trabalho, sem ver isso no seu dia-a-dia, entendeu? Como vem um artista sei l\u00e1 de onde e coloca isso dentro da galeria, e vira arte. Mas o que o pedreiro faz n\u00e3o \u00e9. Esses crit\u00e9rios a\u00ed, que acabam por dizer o que \u00e9 e o que n\u00e3o \u00e9 dentro desse guarda chuva dessa palavra. \u00c9 ent\u00e3o, tipo assim, como esses nobres de antigamente... determinavam o que as coisas s\u00e3o ou n\u00e3o s\u00e3o, e... que o mundo se adeq\u00fce aos seus desejos! Eu sinto que o mundo da arte \u00e9 bastante isso. E a\u00ed, por exemplo, se voc\u00ea sai dessa expectativa do mundo da arte, voc\u00ea pode at\u00e9 entrar, mas o pre\u00e7o que voc\u00ea vai pagar vai ser mais alto, voc\u00ea tem que fazer umas concess\u00f5es aqui, ali... mais pensando nessa palavra natural que o Fred usou, tentando conduzir assim \u00e9 \u2026\r\n\r\nCastiel: <\/strong>Eu acho que tem pessoas que n\u00e3o s\u00e3o artistas, n\u00e3o querem ser, acho que \u00e9 um problema simples, algumas pessoas n\u00e3o querem ser. N\u00e3o se preocupam com esse dilema... existem problemas que s\u00e3o nossos e n\u00e3o de outras pessoas. Existem pessoas que n\u00e3o se importam de fato com a arquitetura, que n\u00e3o \u00e9 uma quest\u00e3o serem classificadas ou n\u00e3o como arquitetas. \u00c9 outra quest\u00e3o... desenvolver o trabalho e pronto. Existem pessoas que cantam e n\u00e3o se consideram cantores. A quest\u00e3o \u00e9 que existe uma... se tratando de pessoas racializadas, n\u00e9, negras, essa quest\u00e3o \u00e9 um pouco mais complexa porque essa categoria - que s\u00e3o categorias de poder - n\u00e3o s\u00e3o pensadas pra n\u00f3s... artistas, arquitetos, pintor, cantor, mas ainda assim eu acredito na autonomia, de n\u00f3s, ... no sentido de que existe cantores de rap... a\u00ed eu j\u00e1 vou me encruzilhando... mas existem rappers que n\u00e3o se consideram cantores, e existem aqueles que se consideram\u2026 enfim e n\u00e3o faz nenhum sentido para alguns negociar a categoria cantor. Outros, fazem. E a minha rela\u00e7\u00e3o com a arte \u00e9 a mesma coisa, eu desenvolvia\u00a0 obras desde muito tempo, mosaico, pintura, desenho, j\u00e1 na minha inf\u00e2ncia, assim... a\u00ed chegou um momento que na universidade a\u00ed falei \u201cCara, eu quero entrar nessa galeria! Se eu tiver de dizer que eu sou artista ent\u00e3o eu vou falar que eu sou!\u201d E foi assim. Agora parece que \u00e9 simples, n\u00e9, mas \u00e9 um processo dif\u00edcil. S\u00f3 que \u00e9 importante desmistificar a ideia desse artista... nem todo mundo \u00e9 artista. N\u00e3o t\u00f4 falando, n\u00e3o t\u00f4 criando uma hierarquia do o que \u00e9, e o que n\u00e3o \u00e9.T\u00f4 dizendo que realmente tem pessoas que n\u00e3o se importam, e eu aprendi muito isso quando eu fiz O Trauma \u00e9 Brasileiro, porque foi uma exposi\u00e7\u00e3o toda pra Fonte Grande, pro meu av\u00f4 que tinha acabado de morrer, e eu subi, assim, falei com os meus vizinhos \u201cOlha eu t\u00f4 fazendo o projeto, a exposi\u00e7\u00e3o vai come\u00e7ar semana que vem\u201d. Contando meus dedos n\u00e3o tinha nem dez pessoas da Fonte Grande. E eu entendi que essas pessoas, as minhas vizinhas, s\u00e3o livres, elas n\u00e3o necessariamente precisam ir l\u00e1 ver exposi\u00e7\u00e3o que eu t\u00f4 falando sobre elas, elas n\u00e3o s\u00e3o obrigadas a ir l\u00e1 me prestigiar. Elas v\u00e3o quando elas quiserem. se elas quiserem. Nossa rela\u00e7\u00e3o t\u00e1 pra alem disso, e eu me cobrava assim \u201cporra! N\u00e3o, voc\u00ea tem que ir, \u00e9 l\u00e1 no centro\u201d... e elas falavam \u201cn\u00e3o Castiel, n\u00e3o quero... ahh... vai l\u00e1, faz\u201d, e outras foram em outro momento, outras continuaram a arte de outra forma, rela\u00e7\u00e3o de arte de outra forma. Ent\u00e3o eu penso um pouco dessa forma.\r\n\r\nFredone:<\/strong> Voc\u00ea falou uma coisa que eu acabei esquecendo agora, mas.... Ah! Voc\u00ea falou \u201cAh vou chamar isso de arte, quero entrar nessa galeria e vou chamar isso de arte\u201d, meio assim que voc\u00ea falou... e tamb\u00e9m era isso, assim... principalmente nos primeiros dez, quinze anos que eu tava fazendo graffiti, a gente odiava a palavra arte, a gente odiava a palavra artista, a gente odiava a palavra academia, universidade... porque a gente tamb\u00e9m, naquela \u00e9poca... e n\u00e3o mudou muito, n\u00e9... assim como o Brasil inteiro tem essas pr\u00e1ticas, n\u00e9, de subjugar, de banir, etc, etc, etc\u2026 isso n\u00e3o vai ser diferente na universidade, n\u00e3o vai ser diferente na galeria, n\u00e3o vai ser diferente em nenhum desses lugares, n\u00e9... ent\u00e3o a gente j\u00e1 odiava a palavra artista nessa \u00e9poca. A gente falava, \u201cN\u00e3o! Eu fa\u00e7o graffiti, n\u00e3o fa\u00e7o arte.\u201d Porque na nossa cabe\u00e7a... inclusive tando desse lado do muro, ent\u00e3o a gente j\u00e1 odiava a palavra artista... porque na nossa vis\u00e3o \u00e9 de que era uma coisa muito superficial... mas isso porque tamb\u00e9m? Quais eram os artistas que a gente via? Que tipo de arte a gente via? Que tipo de arte era banida? A nossa arte inclusive era, e continua sendo, banida at\u00e9 hoje por muitos artistas... e academia, de outro modo, ia l\u00e1 entrevistar a gente, pra fazer as coisas tamb\u00e9m, mas do mesmo modo colocando a nossa cria\u00e7\u00e3o, nosso graffiti, nossa pixa\u00e7\u00e3o assim: \u201cAh, legal tem uns meninos ali que fazem graffiti\u201d, \u201cTem uns meninos que fazem pixa\u00e7\u00e3o\u201d. Por isso que acho que a gente tomou essa raiva... porque a gente n\u00e3o tinha acesso... aos pesquisadores, negros por exemplo. Ent\u00e3o isso j\u00e1 era muito diferente, porque sempre que algu\u00e9m vinha nos entrevistar... e aqui tamb\u00e9m como agora, a Joana que est\u00e1 entrevistando a gente, normalmente s\u00e3o essas pessoas. A gente tem pouco acesso a essas pesquisas, a esses trabalhos de arte... a gente teve pouco acesso a tudo isso. E durante muito tempo eu n\u00e3o queria ser artista e tamb\u00e9m acho que n\u00e3o quero... falo que sou artista e tal, mas tamb\u00e9m n\u00e3o acho que isso v\u00e1 me resumir jamais, porque fa\u00e7o arte tamb\u00e9m, sou artista tamb\u00e9m... e tamb\u00e9m n\u00e3o sou s\u00f3 grafiteiro. Fa\u00e7o graffiti tamb\u00e9m, fa\u00e7o rap tamb\u00e9m... n\u00e3o sou s\u00f3 isso! Nem eu consigo resumir o que eu sou, assim, n\u00e9... mas o que mais me chama aten\u00e7\u00e3o mesmo, indo por essa coisa que a Joana falou, \u00e9 como que as pessoas n\u00e3o querem ser, n\u00e9, misturando com o que a Castiel falou, as pessoas n\u00e3o querem ser artistas, n\u00e3o se importam, eu tamb\u00e9m n\u00e3o me importava... pelo contr\u00e1rio, era avers\u00e3o, mas... tem uma coisa desse poder de se apropriar das coisas, e monetizar as coisas, e essas pessoas serem apagadas mais ainda\u2026 assim, n\u00e9, j\u00e1 s\u00e3o apagadas, em v\u00e1rias camadas de apagamento, mas tem o apagamento da pr\u00f3pria galeria, uma super apropria\u00e7\u00e3o de uma t\u00e9cnica ou seja l\u00e1 o que for... e monetiza\u00e7\u00e3o dessa t\u00e9cnica, porque a monetiza\u00e7\u00e3o dessa t\u00e9cnica eu tamb\u00e9m acho bastante complexo, assim... pelo menos \u00e9 algo que me incomoda bastante... porque a\u00ed eu me vejo, eu volto no passado e lembro de mim... sendo entrevistado como o \u201cgaroto do graffiti\u201d, como o \u201cmenino do graffiti\u201d, que n\u00e3o pensa... depois eu tenho acesso a alguns dos estudos, n\u00e9, dos textos que escrevem sobre mim, mat\u00e9ria de jornal tamb\u00e9m\u2026 depois eu lia e pensava \u201cn\u00e3o, n\u00e3o \u00e9 isso\u201d. Nas galerias tamb\u00e9m, quando eu vejo muita coisa feita com material de constru\u00e7\u00e3o, eu falo \u201cmas isso a\u00ed n\u00e3o \u00e9... isso n\u00e3o \u00e9 real\u201d Tem v\u00e1rias realidades, mas, assim, muito superficial essa abordagem de algumas coisas, principalmente de quem nunca, sei l\u00e1, nunca viu uma lajota, nunca morou numa casa onde s\u00f3 tinha lajota e n\u00e3o tinha o reboco... talvez nessas quest\u00f5es que eu fico um pouco com a cabe\u00e7a borbulhando, me enxergando nesse passado assim\u2026 porque eu acho que volto mesmo pro passado, assim... um passado de explora\u00e7\u00e3o. Lembrando que muitas vezes a gente foi, e continua sendo, explorado, por \u00e0s vezes n\u00e3o conseguir ver al\u00e9m do muro. Isso n\u00e3o depende....assim, tem a nossa parte... mas muitas vezes n\u00e3o depende de n\u00f3s, sair e ver que existe um mund\u00e3o do lado de fora, conversar com outras pessoas... e isso s\u00f3 foi poss\u00edvel na minha vida com o hip-hop... poderia viver de outro modo, mas o hip-hop foi mesmo que me deu essa possibilidade de conversar com outras pessoas, de ver que existiam artistas negros, pesquisas negras, livros... at\u00e9 ent\u00e3o era s\u00f3 o hip-hop. E a\u00ed um pouco voltando pro que a Joana falou.. a gente criou algo dentro dessa adversidade\u2026 a gente cresceu cercado de muro, a gente cresceu cheio de problemas, e com o hip-hop...\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> e de prote\u00e7\u00e3o tamb\u00e9m, n\u00e9...\r\n\r\nFredone: <\/strong>Sim, tamb\u00e9m uma prote\u00e7\u00e3o, um lugar onde a gente se conhece, se reconhece. O modo como a gente se organiza como hip-hop, que tamb\u00e9m j\u00e1 n\u00e3o \u00e9 s\u00f3 territorial, n\u00e3o \u00e9 s\u00f3 um territ\u00f3rio. Mas juntou v\u00e1rios garotos na Ufes9<\/sup>. Eu sozinho na Ufes era uma coisa, mas nossas reuni\u00f5es do hip-hop eram l\u00e1. Ent\u00e3o juntava gente de v\u00e1rios bairros, um monte de favelado indo pra Ufes... s\u00f3 que um favelado sozinho na Ufes seria muito mais vulner\u00e1vel. O hip-hop \u00e9 esse lugar, um lugar n\u00e3o f\u00edsico, um lugar onde a gente se encontra.\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Sim... e tem esse... tem algo de muito forte tamb\u00e9m, assim... de n\u00f3s que sa\u00edmos de uma fortaleza, n\u00e9, de um aquilombamento mesmo, sa\u00edmos, mas n\u00e3o sa\u00edmos, mas voltamos, fazemos esse tr\u00e2nsito assim... habitar esse outros espa\u00e7os de negocia\u00e7\u00e3o, onde opera tamb\u00e9m o direito ao banimento de modo contempor\u00e2neo, \u00e9... n\u00e3o se faz como... assim... \u00e9 preciso tirar da gente o status de ing\u00eanuos, n\u00e9... porque parece que quando a gente, eu, voc\u00ea, outras das nossas amigas e amigos que v\u00e3o negociar com a galeria, v\u00e3o pra institui\u00e7\u00e3o, v\u00e3o pra faculdade... sim, pode haver ingenuidade, mas dizendo especificamente de voc\u00ea Fredone, da Kika10<\/sup>, enfim, de outras ... n\u00e3o existe ingenuidade entre n\u00f3s, a gente t\u00e1 lidando assim de modo bem contundente com os problemas que acontecem ali... porque ainda s\u00e3o... ainda h\u00e1 problemas, a viol\u00eancia continua ali, n\u00e3o \u00e9 porque eu entrei na Ufes ou em galerias que as coisas se desfizeram, pelo contr\u00e1rio \u00c9 realmente como que a gente lida com essas novas taxas, com essas ofertas de compra e de venda. Por exemplo, est\u00e1 acontecendo, no Brasil, um projeto grandioso relacionado \u00e0 registro e mem\u00f3ria de personalidades negras, mas se for analisar a participa\u00e7\u00e3o de cada artista, sendo eu uma delas, posso dizer que n\u00e3o recebemos cach\u00ea, apenas um valor simb\u00f3lico para desenvolver a obra. Os problemas continuam pelo pr\u00f3prio mundo que a gente vive, n\u00e9, que racializa, que violenta de formas do g\u00eanero e tal, mas n\u00e3o \u00e9 poss\u00edvel ter ingenuidade, n\u00e9. \u00c9 preciso construir de fato essa intelig\u00eancia a\u00ed que estamos vivendo ... e desenvolvendo.\r\n\r\nFredone: <\/strong>Sim, sim. A\u00ed eu volto para aquela coisa de \u00bbos meninos\u00ab. Os \u00bbmeninos negros\u00ab est\u00e3o aqui fazendo uma pintura. Assim, com essa desvaloriza\u00e7\u00e3o do pr\u00f3prio trabalho.... tipo \u201cvoc\u00eas negros s\u00e3o artistas, voc\u00eas est\u00e3o chegando das periferias, voc\u00eas sempre passaram fome... a gente tem aqui uma mixaria pra voc\u00eas\u201d. N\u00e3o \u00e9 que todo mundo vai agir assim, mas meio que \u00e9 assim... a melhor parte n\u00e3o fica com que fez. E \u00e9 disso que falo quando t\u00f4 falando de constru\u00e7\u00e3o civil. A pessoa constr\u00f3i a casa e n\u00e3o pode morar na casa... ou algu\u00e9m vai l\u00e1 e filma construindo a casa, coloca na galeria e vende muito mais caro do que uma casa. \u00c9 bem confuso. Essa desvaloriza\u00e7\u00e3o me faz voltar para aquela coisa \u00bbdos meninos\u00ab... eu ouvi um zilh\u00e3o de vezes na minha vida...\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> Sem nome, n\u00e9?\r\n\r\nFredone:<\/strong> Uma arte inferior. Sim, emergente.\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> \u2026 fica sem assinatura, na rua voc\u00ea tinha...\r\n\r\nFredone:<\/strong> Sim. \u00bbSeu trabalho \u00e9 legal e tal, voc\u00ea t\u00e1 aqui, voc\u00ea t\u00e1 super requisitado, requisitada... s\u00f3 que a gente tem uma coisinha, que \u00e9 o valor...\u00ab. Acho que \u00e9 complexo, \u00e9 dif\u00edcil tamb\u00e9m... pelo menos pra mim\u2026 lidar com a raiva... fazer essa raiva falar positivamente\u2026 \u00e9 uma coisa de subjugamento\u2026 e \u00e9 muito complexo sair desse lugar.\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Sim e \u00e9 realmente essa a dificuldade... \u00e9 porque a plantation<\/em>, o cativeiro ainda n\u00e3o acabou, nenhum momento, assim... a Joana nos convida a conversar sobre o direito de banir, mas em algum momento n\u00e3o faz sentido pra mim isso.. porque eu fico pensando no que foi a escravid\u00e3o, n\u00e9, porque \u00e9 a grande quest\u00e3o brasileira. Ent\u00e3o como que isso, como que esse direito de se banir... sim, ele foi transportado para o Brasil, mas com a escravid\u00e3o tudo muda porque existe a compra e venda, justamente isso, dos nossos corpos. Ent\u00e3o n\u00e3o \u00e9 apenas um objeto, mas \u00e9 o nosso corpo transformando-se em um objeto, ent\u00e3o compra e venda... at\u00e9 hoje acontece isso, at\u00e9 hoje pessoas negras s\u00e3o compradas, vale alguma coisa, n\u00e9, nosso pr\u00f3prio trabalho de arte, ele passa por isso de algum modo. E a\u00ed a quest\u00e3o \u00e9 ter a nossa sapi\u00eancia... Ricom11<\/sup> a\u00ed vai falar... entender esse valor de compra a\u00ed, e entender o que n\u00e3o se vende. Eu acho que o hip-hop muito me ensina de v\u00e1rios modos, tem coisas que n\u00e3o se vendem mesmo, a gente consegue nem falar sobre elas. Que dir\u00e1 vender, n\u00e9!\r\n\r\nFredone:<\/strong> Sim, sim. \u00c9 porque s\u00e3o v\u00e1rias camadas. Costumo dizer que as coisas s\u00e3o muito bem amarradas pra te cercar de v\u00e1rios lados, e fazer v\u00e1rias e v\u00e1rias camadas. Ao mesmo tempo, a gente est\u00e1 o tempo inteiro escapando dessas milh\u00f5es de amarra\u00e7\u00f5es e camadas. Por isso que a gente t\u00e1 aqui, por isso eu cheguei aos quarenta. Em alguns momentos eu consegui escapar dessas amarras, dessas cercas...mas isso n\u00e3o \u00e9 garantido, que sempre vai funcionar a minha tentativa de escapar dessas milh\u00f5es de coisas, porque escapar e ser, digamos, male\u00e1vel, para passar nos montes de n\u00f3s, a gente precisa usar a energia. E cansa. Cansa falar, cansa tentar transformar isso em algo visual. Cansa entrar no circuito da arte, cansa esse jeito de pensar do circuito oficial. Cansa. Porque ele foi feito exatamente por pessoas que tem a tradi\u00e7\u00e3o de banir... a tradi\u00e7\u00e3o de comprar. Tradi\u00e7\u00e3o de poder de compra. Os museus colecionam s\u00f3 determinados tipos de arte. Agora tem mudado, vai mudando alguma coisinha, mas imagina o tanto de arte que foi feito, que est\u00e1 sendo feito, e que a gente n\u00e3o tem acesso\u2026 diretamente eu digo\u2026\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Sim...\r\n\r\nFredone<\/strong>: E que s\u00e3o tratados como coisa de crian\u00e7a. N\u00e3o que crian\u00e7a seja ruim, mas \u00e9, tipo algo muito...\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Primitivo, n\u00e9...\r\n\r\nFredone:<\/strong> \u00c9! Inocente.\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> \u00c9 inocente... \u00e9 a melhor palavra mesmo.\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> Bom eu poderia continuar, mas talvez pra encerrar e n\u00e3o tomar mais o tempo de voc\u00eas, uma coisa que eu pensei em perguntar a voc\u00eas... o Fred tem um projeto de mural chamado Latinta, em que ele convida artistas latino americanos... tamb\u00e9m j\u00e1 teve artistas que n\u00e3o fossem da Am\u00e9rica Latina... pra pintar l\u00e1 em Serra Dourada. E voc\u00ea tem o podcast.... \u201cMacumbas de Travesti\u201d, e voc\u00ea tamb\u00e9m convida pessoas latino americanas, n\u00e9...\r\n\r\nCastiel: <\/strong>Sim.\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> E a\u00ed eu queria ouvir de voc\u00eas\u2026 que diferen\u00e7a voc\u00eas enxergam nisso de ser latinoamericanos dentro da pr\u00e1tica de voc\u00eas? Por que essas escolhas de fazer um projeto voltado para isso?\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Ent\u00e3o... o podcast \u201cMacumbas de Travestis\u201d... de fato eu me interesso muito pra encontrar com pessoas da Am\u00e9rica Latina, porque ainda que no Brasil eu viva a viol\u00eancia racial, eu n\u00e3o me considero brasileira, eu n\u00e3o tenho nenhum orgulho dessa p\u00e1tria, dessa nacionalidade, mesmo que meu nome seja brasileiro, meu sobrenome. Acho que a cidadania brasileira \u00e9 um dado de viol\u00eancia, mesmo assim porque \u00e9 uma... quem \u00e9 considerado cidad\u00e3o brasieliro, \u00e9 quem tem direito \u00e0 seguran\u00e7a, \u00e0 sa\u00fade, enfim, a tudo isso a\u00ed que estamos vendo. Enfim, isso \u00e9 um ponto. Mas ainda assim, eu vivo num pa\u00eds que \u00e9 super imperialista com os outros pa\u00edses da Am\u00e9rica Latina. Brasil \u00e9 desse tamanho porque roubou muita terra das pessoas. S\u00e3o pouqu\u00edssimas pol\u00edticas de integra\u00e7\u00e3o com as suas vizinhas. Existem as barreiras de l\u00edngua, que foi historicamente criada pra gente se separar por conta da coloniza\u00e7\u00e3o, e tamb\u00e9m o desejo de assim o fazer. Queremos, desejamos aprender ingl\u00eas e nos afastar o espanhol. Tenho muita vontade de encontrar essas pessoas, porque s\u00e3o t\u00e3o perto, mas t\u00e3o longe. Geralmente, essa \u00e9 a sensa\u00e7\u00e3o, t\u00e3o perto, mas t\u00e3o longe. A\u00ed, Joana, tem uma coisa mais complexa, que quando sai da America Latina, que a\u00ed a negritude se embrenha nessa identidade latino-americana, da mesma forma que voc\u00ea n\u00e3o deixa de ser branca a\u00ed em cima, passa a ser uma branca latino-americana. A negritude continua acontecendo junto, Fredone tamb\u00e9m, e ent\u00e3o as coisas s\u00e3o ainda mais complexas... e tem tudo isso que envolve o podcast... e eu tenho inclusive que editar um \u00e1udio agora, porque... que pregui\u00e7a de fazer isso gente eu tenho que fazer, podcast d\u00e1 muito trabalho, meu deus!\r\n\r\nFredone:<\/strong> Ai, ai hehe. Terminou?\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Sim.\r\n\r\nFredone:<\/strong> Latinta come\u00e7ou em 2012 quando eu e Moska fomos participar de um festival de arte urbana no Chile. A\u00ed a gente pensou, na doidera... bem na doideira mesmo... de emendar para Argentina e Uruguai, que est\u00e3o perto. A gente foi de \u00f4nibus, passou pela Cordilheira dos Andes... Coisas que eu s\u00f3 via na escola\u2026 minha primeira viagem internacional. No avi\u00e3o, indo, eu pensei em me conectar mais, com mais pessoas. A\u00ed pensei: \u00bbVou criar um projeto para aproximar essas pessoas de v\u00e1rios pa\u00edses\u00ab. Fui viajando para outros pa\u00edses, tamb\u00e9m recebi gente de outros pa\u00edses aqui. Uma coisa que a gente j\u00e1 tinha pr\u00e1tica no graffiti, que vem do hip-hop. Na Argentina a gente ficou sete dias na casa de pessoas que a gente nunca tinha visto na vida. Essa conex\u00e3o foi feita. Ent\u00e3o eu pensei em receber pessoas aqui tamb\u00e9m, era meio que chamar de resid\u00eancia art\u00edstica o que j\u00e1 era o natural pra mim. Chamar de pr\u00e1tica art\u00edstica o que j\u00e1 era natural. Eu acho que isso tamb\u00e9m s\u00e3o t\u00e1ticas de sobreviv\u00eancia, porque a gente j\u00e1 fez isso durante tantos anos e \u00e0s vezes at\u00e9 eu mesmo subestimava isso... mas isso \u00e9 uma coisa muito grande. Essas conex\u00f5es, o podcast... \u00e9 muito grande. Fazer um encontro de pessoas pintando, \u00e9 muito grande. Faz muita diferen\u00e7a. Eu acredito muito nisso... porque \u00e9 como chegou at\u00e9 mim. E pensei principalmente nessa ideia de Am\u00e9rica Latina. Uma pela proximidade de territ\u00f3rio. Essa possibilidade de viajar de \u00f4nibus, outra, porque o idioma, apesar de ser um pouco diferente, ainda sim d\u00e1 pra usar um \u201cPortunhol\u201d, se comunicar, aprender... Eu acho que a gente precisa aprender um pouco de espanhol mesmo, para se conectar e para ganhar mais for\u00e7a. Esses pa\u00edses est\u00e3o muito conectados pelo idioma, de algum modo, muito articulados porque s\u00e3o pa\u00edses que falam a mesma l\u00edngua. A gente t\u00e1 aqui meio isolado. \u00c9 isso que a Castiel falou, que o Brasil coloniza v\u00e1rias partes da Am\u00e9rica Latina, de algum modo o Brasil invadiu terras... essa condi\u00e7\u00e3o de s\u00f3 falar portugu\u00eas me parece os Estados Unidos, que s\u00f3 fala ingl\u00eas e que n\u00e3o se interessa muito em aprender outro idioma, ou que falem o meu... acho que aprender espanhol tamb\u00e9m me abriu a cabe\u00e7a para o mundo\u2026 pessoas que eu vejo que est\u00e3o em condi\u00e7\u00f5es muito pr\u00f3ximas da minha. Aprender o idioma me faz ler em espanhol, ver um monte de v\u00eddeos, ouvir m\u00fasica em espanhol, muito mais do que antes... eu n\u00e3o ouvia nada praticamente em espanhol. \u00c9 uma tentativa, principalmente, de juntar for\u00e7as\u2026 principalmente com pessoas que est\u00e3o fazendo v\u00e1rias coisas, muitos projetos legais que eu conheci.\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Massa.\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> Obrigada!\r\n\r\nFredone:<\/strong> Acho que foi legal. Muito legal conversar com voc\u00eas.\r\n\r\nCastiel: <\/strong>Primeira vez que eu tenho uma longa conversa com Fredone assim...\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> E eu com voc\u00eas... quer dizer, l\u00e1 vou eu falar merda, mas \u00e9 a primeira vez que a gente senta pra conversar mesmo.\r\n\r\nCastiel: <\/strong>Sim, foi bom, foi bom.\r\n\r\nFredone: <\/strong>Foi legal assim...\r\n\r\nJoana<\/strong>: ... de desculpa\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> n\u00e3o, eu ia perguntar quando vai ter o pr\u00f3ximo Latinta.\r\n\r\nJoana<\/strong>: Teve uns bate papos, n\u00e9?\r\n\r\nFredone:<\/strong> T\u00e1 no youtube, e tamb\u00e9m nos podcast. Tenho vontade de fazer algumas coisas esse ano, mas provavelmente alguma coisa virtual. Acho que \u00e9 bem legal essa possibilidade de novas coisas, outros jeitos de se conectar assim, por exemplo que fiz um bate papo.\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> ...n\u00e3o \u00e9 s\u00f3 com o muralismo, n\u00e3o... n\u00e9?\r\n\r\nFredone:<\/strong> Eu fiz um bate papo, inclusive depois a gente pode pensar em algo. Eu troquei ideia com um artista de Mo\u00e7ambique, pela internet. Essa coisa do virtual me fez pensar nisso.\r\n\r\nCastiel: <\/strong>Sim.\r\n\r\nFredone: <\/strong>Mas foi massa conversar. Conversar com voc\u00ea tamb\u00e9m, Castiel. Falo sempre com a Joana: \u00bbNossa, \u00e9 muito dif\u00edcil conversar com outras pessoas, assim... do mudo da arte, talvez... me cansa, e eu n\u00e3o consigo muito lidar com isso. Eu, particularmente n\u00e3o tenho conseguido lidar, ainda mais nesse ano, em que estou bastante ansioso, mais ansioso do que nunca na minha vida, talvez por ficar muito em isolamento, assim.. acho que \u00e9 sempre cansativo. Mas trocar ideia com voc\u00eas \u00e9 outra coisa, sei l\u00e1, mais pr\u00f3ximo da gente. Claro que a gente tem que aprender, tem que estar preparado para tudo isso. Conversar com essas pessoas desse mundo da arte mais engessado. Mas para ser sincero nesses \u00faltimos tempos tenho ficado bastante cansado com isso...\r\n\r\nJoana: <\/strong>\u2026 mas isso \u00e9 uma das perguntas... \u201csempre que tem que t\u00e1\u201d... mas ser\u00e1 que tem que t\u00e1? \u00c9 importante estar preparado, mas ao mesmo tempo... isso que eu tava tentando falar desse natural... que eu n\u00e3o consegui tanto falar. Isso parece ser uma preocupa\u00e7\u00e3o pra voc\u00ea. Voc\u00ea tem que se modificar, claro que \u00e9 necess\u00e1rio, pra fazer um jogo, mas...\r\n\r\nFredone: <\/strong>Eu n\u00e3o digo modifica\u00e7\u00e3o...\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> ...a\u00ed a gente vai acabar estendendo...\r\n\r\nFredone: <\/strong>Eu digo mais de estar preparado fisicamente, psicologicamente. Isso... \u00e9 ter, de novo, renovado o meu f\u00f4lego. Preciso de f\u00f4lego renovado para entrar nessas conversas a\u00ed de novo...\r\n\r\nCastiel: <\/strong>\u00c9 eu tamb\u00e9m eu tenho bastante avers\u00e3o ao pessoal da arte, mas eu vou fazendo assim, n\u00e9... vendo onde que tem as pessoas mais confort\u00e1veis, aceitando os convites porque, dai realmente... \u00e9 isso, n\u00e9 a gente quis virar artista ent\u00e3o vai ter momento que a gente vai ter que descansar dessa categoria a\u00ed que a gente decidiu, desse de fato \u00e9 um processo de cura porque sen\u00e3o a gente fica s\u00f3 respondendo a esses problemas, n\u00e9, problemas da arte e n\u00e3o consegue... outra coisa...\r\n\r\nFredone: <\/strong>Sim! Mas \u00e9 bom demais ver voc\u00ea e Kika indo... \u00c9 bom demais! Sempre falo que \u00e9 uma continuidade de tantas coisas que vieram acontecendo antes. E depois de voc\u00eas, vir\u00e3o outras pessoas. \u00c9 muito massa ver as coisas se movimentando assim, sabe? \u00c9 isso! Que seja minimamente... a gente vai contribuindo pra que alguma coisa, pelo menos, saia desse lugar engessado e cansativo, inclusive.\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Sim, sim, sim, sim, uma responsabilidade imensa, n\u00e9, mas vamos fazendo.\r\n\r\nJoana: <\/strong>Mas \u00e9 isso... acaba tendo outra quest\u00e3o, de ter que ter a responsabilidade. Mas enfim, se deixar a gente continua...\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Sim.\r\n\r\nJoana:<\/strong> Mas obrigada, obrigada.\r\n\r\nCastiel:<\/strong> Obrigada Joana...<\/a>"},{"acf_fc_layout":"content_footnotes","bgcolor":"","footnotes_list_hide_numbers":false,"footnotes":[{"footnote":"Express\u00e3o traduzida literalmente do original em alem\u00e3o: https:\/\/de.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Bannrecht<\/a> (acessado em 30 de Maio de 2021)"},{"footnote":"https:\/\/pt.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Banalidade<\/a> (acessado em 30 de Maio de 2021)"},{"footnote":"https:\/\/castielvitorinobrasileiro.com\/podcast<\/a> (acessado em 30 de Maio de 2021)"},{"footnote":"https:\/\/fredonefone.com\/Visao-central-periferica<\/a> (acessado em 30 de Maio de 2021)"},{"footnote":"https:\/\/castielvitorinobrasileiro.com\/_foto_sdm<\/a> (acessado em 30 de Maio de 2021)"},{"footnote":"Bairros perif\u00e9ricos da Grande Vit\u00f3ria-ES, Brasil."},{"footnote":"Sobre isso, Fredone fez o livro \u00bbRap: a for\u00e7a da fala\u00ab. https:\/\/fredonefone.com\/Rap-A-Forca-da-Fala<\/a> (acessado em 30 de Maio de 2021)"},{"footnote":"M\u00fasico Projota, https:\/\/pt.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Projota<\/a> (acessado em 30 de Maio de 2021)"},{"footnote":"Universidade Federal do Esp\u00edrito Santo."},{"footnote":"Artista Kika Carvalho:https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/kikacarvalhokika\/?hl=pt<\/a> (acessado em 30 de Maio de 2021)"},{"footnote":"Artista Rincom Sapi\u00eancia: https:\/\/pt.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Rincon_Sapi%C3%AAncia<\/a> (acessado em 30 de Maio de 2021)"}]}]},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.akademie-solitude.de\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/29498","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.akademie-solitude.de\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.akademie-solitude.de\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.akademie-solitude.de\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/16"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.akademie-solitude.de\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=29498"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.akademie-solitude.de\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/29498\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.akademie-solitude.de\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=29498"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"project","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.akademie-solitude.de\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/project?post=29498"},{"taxonomy":"project_type","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.akademie-solitude.de\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/project_type?post=29498"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}